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Does Anyone Know The Flat-Earth "Conspiracy"?

TBLman has posted umpteen threads here asserting that the Earth is a flat disc stationary in Space, with no gravity, and the other celestial bodies (presumably) orbiting it.

He has not invented this. So don't blame him.

There are assorted videos, blogs or whatever on t'Net pushing the idea as dogma that Shall Not Be Questioned, and he's apparently gained his ideas from these. They can be nasty, the people making these, too; calling anyone who questions them, a liar or an idiot; or using a trick common in the form of domestic abuse called in law, "coercive & controlling behaviour"..

Their common theme is that only they are telling the truth and we have all been taught a gigantic lie about spherical planets and the heliocentric, Solar System... but why would we be; and by whom?

The geocentric model was pushed for centuries by the Church, for their power; but ironically it was a model devised by a pagan (in their eyes) - the pre-Christian, non-Jewish Classical Greek, Aristotle, whose own religion was of a soap-opera pantheon. Its attraction was of simple arrogance, placing Man (literally and figuratively, 'man') at the centre of the Universe. Eventually the Church of Rome conceded Galileo and his contemporaries were right, though it took it 400 years to swallow its pride and apologise to their memories. The Vatican even has it own observatory now.

In FE-ist eyes, the heliocentric and gravity model is heresy, designed as part of, or supporting a mysterious "conspiracy"; but a conspiracy of what? Not itself because that would gain nothing for the conspirators - apart from ridicule.

TBLman told me the conspiracy is extremely complicated, but not what it is, suggesting as many explanations as adherents. It would have to be complicated to have originated in centuries past, yet still be maintained around the world even today; with no evident purpose or beneficiaries.

(As guide to age, Renaissance paintings sometime show globes. These were mapped, though not ever so accurately, by the early mariners who set forth from European countries to "discover new" lands... usually so their own countries could conquer them.)

One present-day example is a certain Eric Dubay, a yoga instructor, who calls his version "The Atlantean Conspiracy". At least he is civil about it, but his long list of images and short texts to show only his basic lack of geographical or simple physics, knowledge.

A 19C example was a grocer, later hotelier, falsely pretending to be a "professor", in the Dakota spa-town of Hot Springs. I'd name him but, sorry, I have lost the reference. His very strange model depicted the known world as not itself flat, but as a toroidal dish, like a roulette wheel, in the middle of a huge, square slab of rock. He did not seem to pretend any conspiracies but claimed Biblical "proof", and made money from selling his pamphlets about it! There is a Wikipedia entry about him, with a facsimile of his cod-Renaissance drawing of Planet Roulette-wheel.

''''

So probably no single, cohesive, coherent FE model, and probably no single, coherent "conspiracy"..

Yet they go to such lengths to call all the rest of us, fools and liars!

The supreme irony of these anti-science types though, is that they use the Internet to push it.
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
What are you talking about? I've got definitive proof that the Earth is flat. Nobody's going to be able to debate my proof.

The Earth is 71% water. Out of all that water, maybe 2% of that is carbonated. Thus, for all intents and purposes, the Earth is flat.
Elessar · 26-30, M
@LordShadowfire My personal favorite explanation for why the Earth couldn't be flat is that, if it was, by now, cats would've already pushed everything off the edge
damselfly · 100+, F
@LordShadowfire @Elessar well, I live on a hill.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
RudeBoy1977 · 51-55, M
I find it baffling that anyone who has ever been more than 10 miles from a shore in a boat ever thought the earth was flat. I spend my summers on a large lake, and I have seen, with my very own eyes, land come up over the horizon as I moved closer to it. The only possible explanation for that is that the earth is round. Perhaps that wasn't blindly obvious to the stupider portion of the seagoing population, but at least some of those folks must have understood it and explained it to the rest of them.
spjennifer · 61-69, T
@RudeBoy1977 Kind of hard to go sailing or anywhere else when you only go to Walmart and McDonalds, guess then you might think the Earth is flat! 🤪
RudeBoy1977 · 51-55, M
@spjennifer Right. Or if you were a medieval peasant who lived an entire life on a farm far from the ocean, but surely at least some of the medieval sailors, whether in Europe or North America or Asia, figured out that you can only explain the way the horizon moves if the earth is round. I don't know much about the history of the Polynesian world view, but I bet those folks had it figured out pretty well.
spjennifer · 61-69, T
@RudeBoy1977 I usually ask them how Noah managed to sail for a year without falling off the edge of the World?, they never have an answer to that one... 🤪
UKNaturist · M
There's hundreds if not thousands of them out there who believe in this and the fake moon landings and the chemtrails and fluoride keeping us all under control. 😳
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@UKNaturist I would not be surprised if some of them pick and choose ideas to suit their own version of the dogma.

It's rather like a cult, although without a dominant central commissariat or Beloved Leader.

It all seems part of a general fashion for taking all the benefits of modern science and engineering, while at the same time calling it "lies" or "hoaxes".

Yes, we can think of things we would rather not have been discovered and exploited, but those are the minority. A lot of it may stem from a growing mistrust of any governmental body or scientific institution, especially (but not only) in America where anything not tied down under an aluminium-foil tea-cosy is politicised or commercialised to within an inch of its life.

Yet, although we can understand even if not agree with arguments over pandemics or climate-change, the FE dogma appears to serve no useful purpose to anyone.

They may as well say, as Arthur Conan-Doyle infamously did, that "fairies" exist. Why? He said they do. He had seen the technically flawless photograph of the miniature winged ballerinas, in a garden in 19C Cottingley. He did not stop to think and ask a little more deeply about the logic - though nor did the Kodak staff who examined the camera and print.

'
At least the FE idea is harmless; even really rather funny! There is a 15C parallel having its own recent development of "new technology" - printing - enabling spreading a particularly poisonous fantasy, just as the Internet is so misused today.

This was the book Malleus Malificarum; by a German priest. Despite being criticised by leading theologians of its time as immoral, it became a sort of operating-manual for persecuting so-called "witches" throughout much of Europe for the next three centuries.

Not much new, is there... although I gather burning at the stake for having ideas contrary to someone's assumed dogma, is no longer legal.
UKNaturist · M
@ArishMell - some conspiracies are interesting as they have at least some semblance of fact about them but some are downright ridiculous. The recent 5G / COVID one being a case in point. Everyone needs to have a choice but everyone needs to use their common sense.
spjennifer · 61-69, T
@UKNaturist One of my oldest friends has tinfoil over all his windows to keep the 5G signals out 🙃🤪
Elessar · 26-30, M
There's no point in arguing with those fools. They know it better than yourself it's not true. Their whole point is arguing/annoying you, and if you engage with them, if you're explaining to them, you're losing.
Entwistle · 56-60, M
Flat Earthers..There is nothing to fear but sphere itself.
People have put up websites debunking Eric Dubay's "200 proofs."

Based on those, I threw together this collection of memes in opposition to an earlier flat-Earther who seems to have left the site.
Earlier flat-Earth question at https://similarworlds.com/uncategorized/4183754-People-often-ask-me-why-they-would-lie-about-the





I particularly liked this one proving the "eye level horizon" (claim 2) is false
https://flatearth.ws/water-level-horizon
I also liked this one disproving claim 6 (just google for Ponchartrain power lines; hundreds have shot this image)
I liked this one disproving claim 20
And this one disproving claims 34,35
And this one disproving claims 56,57
@ElwoodBlues you can disprove it with an Everest sized mountain of evidence.
Not going to matter. The people who want to believe this will continue to do so. It's comical that we even need to show them evidence of this.
Elessar · 26-30, M
@robingoodfellow They don't want to be correct, and most likely they themselves don't even believe it. They just want to "be different", to not "be a sheep", and that's one of the desperate ways to achieve that. They're after an excuse to claim they're "marginalized", not legit opponents that you might ever convince with evidence.

In the same cauldron you find novaxxers, Q, and generally people whose sole purpose in life is desperately trying to find a reason to spite anyone else they have around because their brain never evolved past the rebellious teenage phase.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@Elessar @robingoodfellow

I wonder if fear comes into it too, with all "conspiracy" notions, not just FE-ism.

Perhaps, like the most zealous in any dogma, their proponents are afraid to be questioned, to accept they might be mistaken; afraid to learn even; and the more you push them the more they act intellectually like frightened, cornered animals.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
I've come to think it more likely conspiracy fantasies - in plural - rather than a single one; although their common threads seem still to include alleging the whole world having been consistently lied to for centuries.

By whom, how and why.... ? Ah, well. Anything except logic is possible in a fantasy. :-)
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@spjennifer Tell him that therefore having to keep the lights on all the time means he is in a permanent 50Hz or 60Hz*, sinusoidally-alternating electromagnetic field proportional to the lighting-circuit current....

... Don't tell him it is harmless though!

*I'm not sure which country you live in.
spjennifer · 61-69, T
@ArishMell I'm in the good old USA and my buddy lives in the wilds of Kansas, he smokes a lot of weed too! 😃 He's also a supporter and watcher of Alex Jones. I've know him for more than 40 years and he's always been a bit of a loon 🙃
SW-User
Yes well that's what we did too, with trump. We talked about things he said, and things he did. Stupid idiot things, and we analysed them, like a bunch of idiots.. fuck that. That is how we got to where we are, giving idiots power, listening to them, believing them. It's stupid. Insane..
This article in Sci Am only covers the last two decades or so.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/flat-earthers-what-they-believe-and-why/

It says there were two populations of "flat earthers;" basically believers and trolls. And the trolls would construct esoteric arguments, just for the pleasure of trolling less educated round earthers. And some of this trolling helped strengthen the position of true believer flat earthers.

They were winning those arguments with people who were coming in and arrogantly assuming that they could answer everything. And in winning those arguments, they were really converting even more people who really believed it. And so you had this kind of effect where it was sort of spiral out of control a little bit, but I think it wasn't, it wasn't viral in the way that in 2013 as a in the way that it was in 2016 and 2017 and I think part of that is because that esoteric off the wall version of proofs can be quite complicated to get your head around. So for example, if you have the disk version, the world and the infinite plane version, both models suffer from an inability to explain gravity. You don't have a spherical mass, you don't have a central mass, you don't have a central point pulling it all to one point.

. . .

So I think there was a limiting factor going on and that's why when I first came across the flat earth movement, it was probably still pretty small, pretty unknown. I've been given talks about pseudoscience for the last kind of five, six plus years. And I've mentioned that I came across the flat earth movement and people would always say to me, there's nobody who actually believes that nobody actually, they don't really exist, that people are having fun. So it stayed quite small. And then in 2015 and 2016 a couple of things happened that really ignited a movement. And it was the publishing of two videos on YouTube or two video series on YouTube. Um, one I believe was, uh, Eric Dubay, 200 proofs. The earth is not spinning globe. Uh, and the other was Mark Sargent's, uh, uh, 14 videos in his flat earth clues series.

He goes on to say that the "200 proofs" eventually devolve into suggesting Freemason conspiracies, and the conspiracy theories find fertile ground among fundamentalists.

So that's sort of a recent history of flat earthers.
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
@ElwoodBlues I'm sorry to say my tomfoolery may have helped the serious FE loons. 😥
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@ElwoodBlues Thank you for that.

Ah, that would be the Dubay thing I saw... well, I ploughed through about 150 of his "proofs" before realising it was not actually going anywhere. He commits so many basic, school-level errors that he lacks all credibility anyway.

The other thing I saw was one of the most sloppily-made, incoherent videos I've seen.

Several very excitable America men, one man with an accent I could not place, another possibly an Australian, and a clearly Northern English woman who did not say anything very much; tying themselves in utter knots; sometimes offensively with bad language and insults to their opponents...

Perhaps worse was their manipulative tricks, though.
RedBaron · M
Why bother with such a waste of time?
@ArishMell in a way that's my interest too. Not in this particular subject in itself, but what is going on in the human psyche in general.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@robingoodfellow Ah, a deep and fascinating field! What sort of strands are looking at particularly?
RedBaron · M
@ArishMell Of course, someone like that can simply be blocked.
DocSavage · M
If they were real, why do they always say : “ why are you making such a big deal about something you don’t believe in ?”
If everything you knew about the world, science, and reality turned out to a lie. Wouldn’t that bother you ? Wouldn’t you be skeptical, and want evidence ?
If some international organization was spreading these lies, wouldn’t you want to know the how and why ?
And we’re just supposed to take their word for it all. Everyone else is lying, they have the truth, but can’t show anything.
Makes perfect sense.
walabby · M
I don't know why people bother to debate Flat Earthers. Let the crazy loons believe what they want, our spherical Earth will continue to rotate just the same...
Rickichickie · 56-60, F
You opened a can of worms here! 😂
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@Rickichickie Oh, I didn't say you'd tried it! :-)

No, you can never convince anyone entrapped by cults and conspiracies.
Rickichickie · 56-60, F
@ArishMell it would be utter foolishness to even try!
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@Rickichickie There are far worse fantasies and conspiracy ideas on the Internet than these ones.
I try to avoid them. I put them in the same category as the religious nuts I occasionally encounter and have been most of my life: nod politely and keep moving…😳
If he wants to prove it all he has to do is sail to the edge and take a selfie falling off.
@LordShadowfire
A dissertation on what I learned on SW today
by Robingoodfellow

Enlightenment is dead.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@robingoodfellow That's what puzzles me; why the alleged secrecy?

I think different FE enthusiasts have different takes on it, but one notion is that the Antarctic continent holds some secret [nation?] that has not yet been discovered and is being kept hidden.

No, I don't how you hide an entire land-mass either, especially one yet yet found. They probably mean it's known but not been visited; but even Google Earth has photographed most of Antarctica.

I've no idea what "satanic NWO lizard demons are" but the 19C roulette-wheel model does have the totally featureless spandrels between our hemi-toroidal "world" and the edge of the square slab, guarded by angels that scale to a few thousand miles tall!

The problem with too slavish an adherence to the Bible is that it discredits not only its ancient writers, but ultimately God by essentially denying vast swathes of what, if I were a devout Christian, I would celebrate as all part of His work. The Bible is not an astronomical treatise or physics text-book anyway, nor pretends to be. However, I have the impression that religion may not be the driver for a lot of FE fans' belief.

The late-17C or early 18C introduced 'The Age of Enlightenment' when people started to lose their fear of natural phenomena, and instead to try to understand them. They still saw Nature as God's work, but were interested to discover how it works - if you like, how God makes it happen. We are still learning, because each new discovery, each new advance in methods, brings new puzzles to solve.

Sometimes I wonder if we entering a new "age", The Age of Ignorance - certainly of very deep confusion and scepticism; but it is not the lively, healthy scepticism that drives knowledge. Instead, a malign, cold scepticism intended and manipulated to suppress knowledge.

So why?

Maybe some people see the world as facing so many difficulties and becoming so insecure, that they feel helpless and overwhelmed.So they find some solace in ideas defying and denying anything rational or logical;, but providing comforting, quick-fix answers.

I don't know, and obviously we cannot generalise too shallowly, but it is strange that so many such escapees are citizens of some of the most technically-advanced, highest living-standard, best-educated societies.
@ArishMell right now we're in a time where people feel the need to invent realities that allow them to distrust authority, science and government. I'm not sure why this has coalesced like this at this point in time. On equal levels it's fascinating and frightening.
Rickichickie · 56-60, F
@ArishMell I don’t want to delve any deeper into the matter. 😆
Rickichickie · 56-60, F
@LordShadowfire columns… isn’t that Greek mythology?
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
@Rickichickie I want to say it's in the Bible as well. I guess I'll go check the usual sources.
Rickichickie · 56-60, F
@LordShadowfire please do so. 😉
ChipmunkErnie · 70-79, M
Evidently Kyrie Irving knows about it?
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@ChipmunkErnie He may well do!

I had no idea who he is, so read his Wikipedia biography.

A great talent at basketball, but also falling into trouble over his racism. Although he seems to have apologised and backed down from an anti-Semitic stance particularly ironical given his own background.
ChipmunkErnie · 70-79, M
@ArishMell He sort of apologized -- under pressure -- but kept portraying himself as a martyr to unfair charges.
DDonde · 31-35, M
I'll blame him for being a troll.
MonaReeves86 · 36-40, F
The earth is not flat it’s sphere, why would all the other planets be a sphere except earth ?
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
@MonaReeves86 That's the funniest part. According to flat earth theorists, there are no other planets, just lights in the dome of the sky.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@MonaReeves86 I doubt they could answer that.
MonaReeves86 · 36-40, F
Bang5luts · M
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Diotrephes · 70-79, M
@spjennifer
Because the photos are taken from the bright side of the moon and light from the sun blocks out the stars. Same as light pollution blocks out the stars from a well lit city.

That sounds reasonable but the reason there are so lights in the background is because the pictures are fakes and were taken in a studio, not on the moon. They couldn't put stars in the background because they couldn't calculate what the star fields would look like from that position on the moon. The space radiation is deadly to humans and other earthly animals.

When they were "going to the moon" it was as easy as going to the mall. We are more advanced that we were then but we can't survive outside of the radiation belts. It you lived another hundred years you would never see an actual human walk on the moon.
spjennifer · 61-69, T
@Diotrephes So I guess the ISS is fake too then? Funny that you can see it pretty clearly even with just a cheapo telescope 🤪
Diotrephes · 70-79, M
@spjennifer
So I guess the ISS is fake too then? Funny that you can see it pretty clearly even with just a cheapo telescope

You may want to brush up on space. The ISS is not in outer space. It is within the radiation belt so it is protected from the deadly radiation. The Moon is outside of the radiation belt and so it is in the deadly zone. Using current technology, humans can not survive in outer space.

The ISS is in orbit around the Earth at an average altitude of 248 miles. The ISS is well within the inner radiation belt.

 
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