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# To vax or not to vax - that is the Cult-of-Vid question!

We're Covid-vax decliners but each of us has different reasons.

We get *very* cold receptions from a bunch of our shared friends who are so pro-vax that it's offensive.

But most people are warmed to the idea of a person being able to legally make their own decision about whether or not to accept being vaxed for Covid and the 'you are the enemy' view is pretty much gone away.
@Northerner says [quote] Evidence is already being produced that the anti vaxers were the wise ones amongst us. Time will tell![/quote]

Here's what the evidence from 2021 says. It says the vaccines saved over 1 million American lives in 2021.

In 2021, the 75% of Americans fully vaccinated produced under 20% of the Covid deaths, while the 25% unvaccinated Americans produced over 80% of the Covid deaths.

In 2021, the 75% of Americans fully vaccinated produced under 31% of Covid cases; while the 25% unvaccinated Americans produced nearly 70% of Covid cases.

This means the US unvaccinated had a 5X higher chance of contracting Covid compared to the vaccinated per capita, and that overall the unvaccinated had about a 15X higher probability of Covid death per capita.

Note: since 'Long Covid' occurs in 15% to 25% of Covid cases, that means there is also a 5X higher prevalence of Long Covid per capita among the unvaccinated.

Sources and details at https://similarworlds.com/disease-illness/vaccines/4268857-Covid-Vaccine-effectiveness-data-from-the-US-2021

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Here's the math behind the ONE MILLION SAVED number.

US Unvaxxed population = 83 million; vaxxed = 249 million. CDC estimate for US Covid deaths in 2021 is 460,000, so 368,000 deaths among the unvaxxed and 92,000 among the vaxxed - your basic pandemic of the unvaccinated.

That works out to a 0.44% death rate among unvaxxed, and a 0.037% death rate among the vaccinated. Please, get out your calculator and check my work!

If the death rate among vaxxed were equal to the death rate among the unvaxxed, that would have resulted in 1.1 million deaths instead of 92 thousand in 2021. Thus the vaccines have ALREADY saved OVER ONE MILLION lives in 2021 alone. That's a YUGE vaccine benefit!!!

And that's just deaths. In 2021, the vaccinated also benefit from a 5X lower infection rate, at least a 5X lower hospitalization rate, and a 5X lower 'long Covid' rate.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@ElwoodBlues You know the rules. You can't abide by them and give me any names. Too Funny. How do I know that? If you had a list of names you would not be quibbling over some silly rule that somehow elevates a sick pastor and a dead nurse into some sort of medical experts. BTW I saw a list yesterday of 90,000 experts medical doctors, immunologists etc that are calling for a halt to the vaxes. I didn't try to verify all 90,000 names. Your side has truly screwed the pooch on this one and you look like a complete goof still trying to support the disproven technology. BTW one of the guys who held patents on the technology used is against their use. He took them and got very sick as the result. Hmmm. So about that great long list of doctors or scientists or statisticians who have recently gone from anti vax to pro vax..... still waiting.
@hippyjoe1955 [quote]You know the rules. [/quote] Yes. I know the rules you stated. Here they are:
[quote]So other than showing me you don't understand English you still have not provided me with any names of any doctors or nurses or medical researchers or immunologists or statisticians who on the basis of the evidence in front of them have become pro vax after having been anti vax. Hmmm.[/quote]
Let me draw your attention to this phrase:
[u]any names of any doctors or nurses or medical researchers[/u] YOUR criteria dude. Nurses were included in YOUR criteria.

Your hypothesis was stupid because it included nurses. That's why you lost. Can you make a better hypothesis with better criteria? I doubt it

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[quote]BTW I saw a list yesterday of 90,000 experts[/quote] Too bad you can't link to it, LOL!!!

BTW, are ANY of your "experts" saying what you say?
Are ANY of them saying "no one is dying of Covid"??
Are ANY of them saying "children can't catch Covid"???

These questions are too tough for you, so you'll ignore them, [b]LOL!!![/b]
I still wear my mask when I’m out in public, because I want to avoid catching Covid, and people are still spreading it. A lot of people aren’t vaccinated and won’t wear masks.
I assume they don’t care, but I refuse to make that [b]my[/b] problem.

I’ve been vaccinated, had the booster shots, and so far (knock wood) I haven’t gotten Covid. Everyone else in my family has, now. The ones who are still alive (again, knock wood) are all vaccinated and have recovered.
@mksworld Complications from the Covid virus itself. If you want actual numbers @ElwoodBlues has posted the information.
@mksworld [quote]Define 'from the virus'.[/quote] That is done by tens of thousands of city and county medical examiners all across the nation. They fill out death certificates, and the death data is collated by citiies and counties and states and posted on their websites. If just a few states or just a few medical examiners were tweaking the data, it would stand out statistically like a sore thumb.

Anyway, based on death certificate data,

In 2021, the 75% of Americans fully vaccinated produced under 20% of the Covid deaths, while the 25% unvaccinated Americans produced over 80% of the Covid deaths.

In 2021, the 75% of Americans fully vaccinated produced under 31% of Covid cases; while the 25% unvaccinated Americans produced nearly 70% of Covid cases.

This means the US unvaccinated had a 5X higher chance of contracting Covid compared to the vaccinated per capita, and that overall the unvaccinated had about a 15X higher probability of Covid death per capita.

Note: since 'Long Covid' occurs in 15% to 25% of Covid cases, that means there is also a 5X higher prevalence of Long Covid per capita among the unvaccinated.

Sources and details at https://similarworlds.com/disease-illness/vaccines/4268857-Covid-Vaccine-effectiveness-data-from-the-US-2021
@mksworld Are the Covid death numbers the result of mis-classification of other causes of death?

Here in the table are US death numbers for the top ten causes of death for six years ending in 2020. Notice how there are 20% more deaths in 2020 than the average of the previous five years? Doing the math, that's 500,000 excess deaths in 2020.

Notice how, in 2020, 345,000 of those 500,000 excess deaths are classified as Covid? Notice how almost all causes of death rose in 2020, including cancer & heart disease?

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778234

If there's any validity to the claim that lots of deaths have been mis-classified as Covid, why did almost all causes of death increase in 2020? Wouldn't mis-classification produce a reduction in those other causes? The evidence says mis-classification is a red herring.
Fairydust · F
I don’t see anything on the MSM news on sudden deaths amongst the vaccinated.
But I can guarantee If all these sudden deaths were from unvaccinated people it would be all over the news!

🤡🌎
If you have verifiable, documented evidence that Covid vaccines are ineffective or dangerous, please do post it. If you do not have evidence then you are just spreading false rumors to frighten people.
@hippyjoe1955 FYI there are multiple different vaccines. To imagine irrational conspiracy fantasies is a sign of paranoid delusion.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@badminton What paranoid conspiracy? It is called marketing. You know capitalism at its finest. Make a product and get 'consumers' to buy it. Big pharma is not in business for your health. It is in business to sell you products that may or may not have good effects on your body. You are the only one who gets to decide.
mksworld · 46-50, C
@badminton indeed there are, but of the three mrna products that were 'approved' by our TGA, now only 1 is primarily available, and the exact same drug with no modifications is continually pushed for 'boosters', meaning the exact same fake antibodies are triggered, which basically do not work against most/any/all of the sea of Omicron mutations. Plus the vax effectiveness wanes after just one month to be basically nothing after 3 to 4 months. wtf? But nearly all the human population in Australia has been exposed to Covid now so there is a very high level of natural inate immunity and therefore the jabs are now both ineffective and not required.
ElizabethThorn · 26-30, F
If people want to take health advice from uneducated blue collar conspiracy theorists over Doctors who have 8 to 10 years of medical school. That's their choice, you have a constitutional right to be a dumbass.
BackyardShaman · 61-69, M
@mksworld you claim you are in Australia were Australians forced to take vaccines? You talk very much like a right wing USA person.
mksworld · 46-50, C
@BackyardShaman No only Israel the fake country state *forced* citizens to get covid jabs. Here it was pushed in other ways - in 2021/22 it was 'get jabbed or have no job' and similar. But now all mandates (except in the NSW State Emergency Service and a very small number of businesses) have been dropped. Vax mandates are effectively 'forcing' people to agree to get jabbed basically against their own free will.
BackyardShaman · 61-69, M
@mksworld no forcing, employers, business and property owners are not required to cater to your or other’s desires, nor should they ethically be required to.
Dino11 · M
but after 6 months your immunity wears off, so getting a booster shot
for COVID-19’s BA.4 and BA.5 Omicron subvariants.
My doctor says Covid Boosters will become just like annual flu
shots from now on.
BackyardShaman · 61-69, M
@Dino11 and they won’t come in Red or Blue
Wiseacre · F
I have not allowed to have anyone tell me to get vaxxed. From the start, it felt wrong for me, end of story.
Northerner · 61-69, M
@Wiseacre Same here.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
I have long observed many times that vaccines do not live up to their billing. A warning was broadcast on the radio a number of years ago. Someone in the grocery store had measles so everyone should avoid the store - unless you had the measles as a kid and were thus immune. My mother in law spent her declining years in a dementia ward. Every year she would get the flu vaccine and every year she would get the flu as would her entire ward in the hospital.

I have a strong belief that the human body knows best how to fight off diseases without our artificial interventions and so I decided the new mRNA vaxes were not for me. Then the people started to get the vax and suffer the consequences. First one to get the vax got shingles. Then others got bells palsy and other neurological illnesses. My brother in law got his and died a few days later from blood clots. The neighbor got his and died in his sleep from cardiac arrest. A young man dropped dead from a heart attack walking across the parking lot. A young woman had her heart stop 3 times in the air ambulance. A middle aged man nearly died from blood clots in his bowel. All for what? A cold. I got delta and never missed a day's work. (I can work from home). Those who tried to encourage me to get the vax and got it themselves have missed work multiple times with covid. One fellow has had it 3 times and each time is worse than the time before.

in my immediate family 3 were vaxed and 3 were unvaxed. Everyone of us got covid. The three that were vaxed also got myocarditis or neuropathy or adenopathy. Fortunately none of the vax injuries in this group were fatal but they were severe enough that they all had to seek medical attention. None of them have fully recovered from the vax injuries.
@hippyjoe1955 I have long observed that certain people here cannot be trusted to be truthful. For example:

Honestly, dude, did you REALLY claim that children couldn't catch Covid??? OMG, you REALLY did!!!

Northerner · 61-69, M
I agree with everything you said about this subject. Evidence is already being produced that the anti vaxers were the wise ones amongst us. Time will tell!
mksworld · 46-50, C
@Northerner We are not against the vaxes in terms of being experimental drugs - just the way they are being pushed/marketed through fear, command/control, etc. by Australia's government to drive uptake and divide/conquer the population. Probably the same as other countries.
Glad it appears to be going away. I vaxed but if someone else didn't, so what? Their choice
gol979 · 41-45, M
@DaveyWavey01 that outlook got you labelled as anti vax at one point. I remember an Oz politician premier of a state, Gunner his name was, saying that if you are against injection mandates then you are "anti vax". He went on to clarify even if you were fully injected and went against mandates you were "anti vax". Crazy times
BackyardShaman · 61-69, M
Flu shots yes Covid shots yes polio vax yes shingles vax yes, etc etc yes yes yes
bgjb58 · M
Fuck ‘em tell them it’s a free Country!
Parody...yet pretty close to the truth.
[media=https://youtu.be/hZZFnNwdgqQ]
spice1 · 46-50, M
I've never been vaccinated since the whole thing started and never will, part of the reason is too many deaths associated with vaccines and boosters, I we're already killing ourselves and don't need the extra help.
1pebbles · 56-60, F
For myself, anti-vaxer, but for those with immune compromised systems, understandable. I did acquire covid and now how have my own antibodies.
mksworld · 46-50, C
Covid is real - the proven efficacy of the vaxes is not.
MougyWolf · 36-40, M
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