
SW-User Best Comment
The divided states of America
jehova · 31-35, M
@SW-User the north American Union?
ArishMell · 70-79, M
Is that something like the Scots Nationalists, the Basque Separatists, the attempt by Chechnia to become independant from the Russian Federation?
There are many secessionist groups around the worlds, each with its background and motives of course, but most seem to have two thing in common.
These are a rather rosy view of creating a successful, independant, modern country; and an inability or unwillingness to explain fully and publicly how, or even if, they have considered how they would administer such a complicated entity.
To work effectively a nation has to:
1 Create its own governmental system. (Scotland, Wales and Ulster have devolved Parliaments; the USA has State equivalents.)
2 Create its own currency, treasury and tax systems. (Scotland has its own Pound [£] on parity with the £ Sterling.)
3 Create its own relationship, formal diplomatic links and border / customs policy with its former partner nation.
4 Decide its wider foreign policies, diplomatic links; paid memberships or signatory status of many international bodies and treaties.
Form and maintain its own:-
- 5 Legal system: not just Laws (the government's role), also independant Judiciary.
- 6 Defence systems even if it decides to be neutral: Security, Army, Air-force and if coastal, Navy.
- 7 Emergency-services: Police, Fire, Ambulances, (Coastguard if applicable).
- 8 Education, Health and Welfare systems, their physical property and staff.
9 Establish at least oversight and policies, if not national ownership, of its transport and utility services: road, rail, air and shipping as applicable; gas, electricity, water & sewerage, waste-disposal, postal etc.; and of its main industries including agriculture. At least some of these will need take into account points 2), 3) and 4) above.
10 Create its own impartial civil-service to operate the nation: the government sets policies but a proper civil-service administers them at departmental and local level for the public at large, not just for the government.
Obviously at least some of the physical assets and the staff already exist and will be inherited, but the break-away parties also seem not to .....
11... Calculate how to pay for all these, even if they strip all services to absolute minimum provision and quality; and not just to establish them in their shiny new country, but to maintain them in future.
It's also important to remember that any services, such as railways and water-supplies, that remain owned in their original homes become imports. This has two effects: their income after tax is lost to the country; and if the service becomes uneconomical, that might be lost as well, or at least have to become very much more expensive. The secessionists cannot expect subsidies from the nation they have rejected!
Of course, the new country might have an advantage if it can export surplus electricity or water to its "new" neighbour.
(Although the EU is NOT a nation, GB lost its subsidies on leaving the bloc - but, the role was reversed. Britain was a nett contributor to the EU funds, not a nett beneficiary of them.)
There are many secessionist groups around the worlds, each with its background and motives of course, but most seem to have two thing in common.
These are a rather rosy view of creating a successful, independant, modern country; and an inability or unwillingness to explain fully and publicly how, or even if, they have considered how they would administer such a complicated entity.
To work effectively a nation has to:
1 Create its own governmental system. (Scotland, Wales and Ulster have devolved Parliaments; the USA has State equivalents.)
2 Create its own currency, treasury and tax systems. (Scotland has its own Pound [£] on parity with the £ Sterling.)
3 Create its own relationship, formal diplomatic links and border / customs policy with its former partner nation.
4 Decide its wider foreign policies, diplomatic links; paid memberships or signatory status of many international bodies and treaties.
Form and maintain its own:-
- 5 Legal system: not just Laws (the government's role), also independant Judiciary.
- 6 Defence systems even if it decides to be neutral: Security, Army, Air-force and if coastal, Navy.
- 7 Emergency-services: Police, Fire, Ambulances, (Coastguard if applicable).
- 8 Education, Health and Welfare systems, their physical property and staff.
9 Establish at least oversight and policies, if not national ownership, of its transport and utility services: road, rail, air and shipping as applicable; gas, electricity, water & sewerage, waste-disposal, postal etc.; and of its main industries including agriculture. At least some of these will need take into account points 2), 3) and 4) above.
10 Create its own impartial civil-service to operate the nation: the government sets policies but a proper civil-service administers them at departmental and local level for the public at large, not just for the government.
Obviously at least some of the physical assets and the staff already exist and will be inherited, but the break-away parties also seem not to .....
11... Calculate how to pay for all these, even if they strip all services to absolute minimum provision and quality; and not just to establish them in their shiny new country, but to maintain them in future.
It's also important to remember that any services, such as railways and water-supplies, that remain owned in their original homes become imports. This has two effects: their income after tax is lost to the country; and if the service becomes uneconomical, that might be lost as well, or at least have to become very much more expensive. The secessionists cannot expect subsidies from the nation they have rejected!
Of course, the new country might have an advantage if it can export surplus electricity or water to its "new" neighbour.
(Although the EU is NOT a nation, GB lost its subsidies on leaving the bloc - but, the role was reversed. Britain was a nett contributor to the EU funds, not a nett beneficiary of them.)
LeopoldBloom · M
These people need to read the Federalist Papers. The idea of several small countries was already discussed and is just as bad of an idea today as it was 250 years ago.
Do these people realize that they will have to either give back or purchase any federal property in their new countries, while also taking on their share of the national debt? Or they haven't thought it through that far?
Do these people realize that they will have to either give back or purchase any federal property in their new countries, while also taking on their share of the national debt? Or they haven't thought it through that far?
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jehova · 31-35, M
@LeopoldBloom and we could amend the constitution to allow for separation. Divorce wasnt legal and was "religious\social suicide" until the 1960s? The law is supposed to adjust to the needs of its people.
A nation for and by the people. Not only its BANKRUPT government.
A nation for and by the people. Not only its BANKRUPT government.
LeopoldBloom · M
@jehova We don't live in a pure democracy where we vote on everything the government does. We elect representatives who make those decisions. If you don't like it, then run for office yourself. In the case of Ukraine, we voted for people who decided that it made more sense to stop Putin's illegal war over there, than to try to stop him when he invades a NATO country.
The federal government isn't responsible for your local roads or schools, that's either your city or state government. Call your governor or mayor and tell them to take care of it.
The point of a Constitution is to make rules during calm periods that can be followed during turbulent periods. That being said, the US Constitution is unusually difficult to amend and we will probably never see an amendment in our lifetime.
The federal government isn't responsible for your local roads or schools, that's either your city or state government. Call your governor or mayor and tell them to take care of it.
The point of a Constitution is to make rules during calm periods that can be followed during turbulent periods. That being said, the US Constitution is unusually difficult to amend and we will probably never see an amendment in our lifetime.
jehova · 31-35, M
@LeopoldBloom as described we dont live in a democracy at all. we live in a republic with democratic elections usurped by outdated safeguards that have been adjusted to be ineffective.
Id run for office but in the current environment i have to be a post retirement age criminal to be elected. At present im healing from brain surgery, made far worse by post retirement age doctors. Suprise suprise; Maybe next time.
My ideas would work. I published while in grade school (junior year) . I know how to produce agricultural gasoline from hemp. Which is why marijuana was ever made illegal in 1938 (fun fact). Assuming America survives in its current form. (id be suprised).
The federal government is responsible for some infrastructure but only seems to provide aid for disaster relief, aid to foreign countries, and to the military; reminiscent of ww2. Why should we pay federal taxes at all if the money isnt used to help the states paying those taxes? The fed is supposed to help fund k12 education. They barely do.
Yes the constitution requires amendments to be improved. Unfortunately, Representatives mostly, post-retirement age, arent willing to be bothered fixing the document and in general just put on a show making it worse with neglect. keeping up appearances; retirement is currently 65 or 67.
Id run for office but in the current environment i have to be a post retirement age criminal to be elected. At present im healing from brain surgery, made far worse by post retirement age doctors. Suprise suprise; Maybe next time.
My ideas would work. I published while in grade school (junior year) . I know how to produce agricultural gasoline from hemp. Which is why marijuana was ever made illegal in 1938 (fun fact). Assuming America survives in its current form. (id be suprised).
The federal government is responsible for some infrastructure but only seems to provide aid for disaster relief, aid to foreign countries, and to the military; reminiscent of ww2. Why should we pay federal taxes at all if the money isnt used to help the states paying those taxes? The fed is supposed to help fund k12 education. They barely do.
Yes the constitution requires amendments to be improved. Unfortunately, Representatives mostly, post-retirement age, arent willing to be bothered fixing the document and in general just put on a show making it worse with neglect. keeping up appearances; retirement is currently 65 or 67.
This message was deleted by its author.
jehova · 31-35, M
@BlueGreenGrey no conflict needed. The civil war occured when half the country chose to not follow the new declaration of rights by the fed. The Confederacy "south" chose to seperate from the union without adequate notice and negotiation; in order to not follow a change of federal policy. If we can negotiate a trial separation. To avoid excessive federal control. It doesnt have to be a war.
Also to escape the unending debt America has to reorganize.
Also to escape the unending debt America has to reorganize.
Punches · 46-50, F
So would we need a passport and go through customs or whatever when we drove through those states?
And on that note, would trump then want to call each of the great lakes "Lake America"?
And on that note, would trump then want to call each of the great lakes "Lake America"?
Zaphod42 · 51-55, M
I still think Washington, Oregon, California and Hawaii should all secede and form our own country. I doubt any Trumplicans would object 🤷♂
dale74 · M
How would the divisional property work when someone owns property in separate states
swirlie ·
Canada has already offered to purchase the entire country of the USA for the equivalent value of America's $36Trillion National Debt and would call the USA either Canada's 11 Province or Canada's 4th Territory.
Prime Minister Trudeau offered Trump an unlimited supply of crude oil and rare earth minerals from Canada, in exchange for the Deed to the entire embodiment of the USA, including Hawaii.
Trump was SO pissedoff at Trudeau for making that very generous offer to get the USA totally out of debt overnight, that he apparently hung up the phone in total disgust at Trudeau's very honest and most generous offer.
Prime Minister Trudeau offered Trump an unlimited supply of crude oil and rare earth minerals from Canada, in exchange for the Deed to the entire embodiment of the USA, including Hawaii.
Trump was SO pissedoff at Trudeau for making that very generous offer to get the USA totally out of debt overnight, that he apparently hung up the phone in total disgust at Trudeau's very honest and most generous offer.
Punches · 46-50, F
@swirlie I tell ya, Every country now wants to take over every other country.
It is getting goofy.
@ninalanyon Given the jackassery of today's politics, I believe it totally.
It is getting goofy.
@ninalanyon Given the jackassery of today's politics, I believe it totally.
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SW-User
Democrats will be Democrats
jehova · 31-35, M
@SW-User alaska texas new hampsire classified as democrats. Thats gonna piss some people off.
MarineBob · 56-60, M
Oh more foreign aid beggers
Thrust · 56-60, M
🤡