@Piano - And perhaps everyone else?

When you see a house, you look at it and wonder who built it, there's no question about whether it was built there or simply made itself, you know that someone gathered the material, thought it through, and spent time to knock it all together. Someone had to build it, it didn't get there by itself. So why would we not assume that for something far more complex than a little house?

If we take a moment to think here, a clock can't create itself, a house can't build itself, and a computer can't put itself into existence by it's own wish, and those are simple constructions. Yet somehow people want to believe that the laws of physics created themselves, that life created itself, and that a world full of chain reactions and working laws and natural things, popped into existence and co-worked with each other in a perfect manner, and atheists say that it... came from a time where nothing ever even existed. How can a house be built by air? How can a clock exist if no one constructed its parts?

If someone goes ahead and says "there was never a beginning in the first place, it has always been" to a group of well educated atheists, then they would deem you to be a fool. But even then, if you said to them "i made a clock, from the presence of nonexistence" they would also call you a fool. Then after you've made those two statements, you can ask them "Then how did universe come to be? If there was no material to build with before everything came into existence, then it could not build itself in the first place, right?", and they will look at you with question marks written on their foreheads. They will speak of how long time it must have took and say "there must be a better answer than saying that someone has always existed and created everything around us".

Okay so we've already come to the conclusion that you can't make something, from nothingness. Something can't just pop into existence like that. So that means that there never was a beginning to start with... Something out there, has always existed, that's a fact.

Now what existed for an eternity back then? Well we do know that whatever it was, it created everything around us. It could have been materials to cause an explosion that existed for an eternity until this happened, or a mind of its own.

Now you tell me what sounds more logical to you... What belief is more believable, more logical? Number 1? Number 2? Number 3?

1# The belief that there was a beginning and nothing before that, meaning that material just popped into existence out of nothingness, and that was the first thing that ever did do so.

2# The belief that this particular material that somehow managed to create everything around us in a perfect manner, has always existed. Meaning for an eternity...

3# The belief that an Almighty God has lived for an eternity, and then at his wish, he created everything we know to be a world, and linked it all together perfectly with much thought given to it.

I'll answer it myself, number 3# is the right one. As number one is simply caused by ignorance, nothing has ever managed to create itself from nonexistence. As number two would not make any sense on its own, how and why would material exist for an eternity? Number 3# is right because there's so much evidence behind it, you can look at the world on its own, and you will understand: "this did not come here on its own, it must have been built by someone".

Piano - Just one more thing before I go to sleep, the bible hasnt been changed, it has just been translated. When you translate a novel from swedish to english, you don't get the direct translation, as that would look like this "hej jag heter martin och jag försöker förklara något" - "Hi I named martin and I try explain something", it doesn't work, therefore you have to change the sentence a bit so it is understandable, but you still get the same context as you would get from a swedish novel. This is the very same thing that has happened to the bible. People have tried to change what is said in the original scriptures, but they have been called out on it, as there's always people, constantly checking every change to see so that it is just as it's said in the hebrew and greek original scriptures.

The bible is an outdated book written by man and has been changed so many times. Sins don't exist, it was created to control others and make them feel guilt and fear for manipulation. I'm not going to feel guilty for something that hurts no one including myself.

I actually did, but it's obvious you guys just came into this conversation not genuinely asking a question but ready to make us see "the right way". Like I said the same way you are entitled to you beliefs I am mine. I'm not going to try and force you to believe anything, but for the future don't be as quick to bash something somebody else believes. We still should have love for all💖

@mystory2
But if I present you with facts, you now know, if you choose to ignore those facts, you aren't adopting faith for not knowing, you are refusing to accept the facts because you want to.

The problem with changes happening to the bible, and god not doing anything about it, is that there is a chance certain rules will slip in, or out, that goes against his will. If he is willing to send people to hell for editing the bible, why would he sit idly by and let his followers fall in line with changes?

It just doesn't make sense, and by shrugging your shoulders and persisting on faith, you are failing to prove any of my points wrong. If you stopped and gave some thought to it you would know I am right, religion makes no sense, even more so when the God involved is supposed to be infinitely more intelligent than humans.

Lol that's not the same nice try though, another example MY faith Is I'm going to love and worship God no matter what. You are entitled to your own opinion hence free will, which is why God hasn't tried to stop anything. Then again we wouldn't know because we don't even know what he looks like, but we have faith he is there @pianoisland

That's what faith is, be living even though you have no hard facts or something you can touch @pianoisland, you should google lost books, or parts, of the bible. It talks about how alot of what was orginally in the bible has been changed due to its age, diff interpretations, and people rewriting it

@mystory2

Why would you willingly deny to look at facts? If someone is killed and the murderer is right in front of you literally red handed it would make no sense to go have faith that the bloodied assailant is innocent. Also why would you worship a book, deemed to be the absolute word of god, that has been changed multiple times.

Also Revelation 22:19 "And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll."

So the bible was changed huh? Yet god never decided to correct these changes, since he states right there changes aren't allowed.

@ unparalleledmonster obviously he stated Marriage once for 1 woman and 1 man hence Adam and eve. I can't tell where exactly to find it but it was a bible study topic, but he basically said having those thoughts isn't a sin but acting on them

@mystory2
Where did you talk about the bible changing in terms of what I brought up in response to you? you completely ignored my point. I'm here to have a dialogue, if you can prove to me that I am wrong with cold hard facts I will change my views. I'm not bashing, just making a case against Christianity, if you are offended that is probably the cognitive dissonance kicking in.

Lol when I said since we have never seen god we don't know what he has done I was responding to that. The point is we don't for sure know we don't know somethings for sure which is why we should have faith @pianoisland

My mistake, regardless, anyone has yet to address any of the points I made with tangible proof.

He actually did, but I think society has taken and made it a big deal because people who are closed minded are scared of new and unfamiliar things

@MartinTheFirst

That's how i understand it. But what do you mean by it being new to them?

@nightswatch27

I'll answer your question if you answer the one i asked

Same logic, most of the Christian faith just doesn't make sense. You choose to ignore facts that thoroughly disprove common beliefs, why would you ever choose to disregard something that is objectively true?

You also didn't say anything about the bible changing.

@mystory2

I think you're wrong about that. I think you're referring to jesus saying that god created people as male and female when the pharisees were trying to trap him

@mystory2

Then could you point out to me where he says it?

@UnparalleledMonster
Sorry we really need those nested replies haha.

@mystory2

What did he say?

@MartinTheFirst

Definitely.
But i think scripture is still pretty clear on the stance towards homosexuality

@unparalleledM

Because God created human beings in his own image. In the image of God he created them; male and female. So that is why Christians make it a big deal!

PSA for Christians: Stop saying you heard it, provide proof, any rational person would yet to be convinced by your rebuttals.

NOpe that's in Genesis @ unparalleledmonster

@pianoisland

Fo real

@pianoisland

There is absolutely a lot of cherry picking from the old testament.
Commandments and prohibition against homosexuality are god's law.
Not mixing fabrics and eating shellfish, well those are rules for a different people in a different time.

I think the problem arises because there are still prohibitions against homosexuality in the new testament. Although none by Jesus himself as far as i know

yeah like Lying , Manipulation and Procrastination aren't as bad or even worse

Shoot me a message if you do, if this thread starts burning I would probably unfollow it.

Gotta start giving me references, or else I will never believe you.

I believe that most christians your are referring too, actually are from a older generation where it wasnt socially accepted, making their dislike of it stronger

@MartinTheFirst

He didn't say a word about homosexuality though.
So why the big deal about it?

Much of the bible is just glossed over, one of the biggest things ignored in the old testament was the way to treat a woman during her period. She also needs to sacrifices doves to become clean.

There was also a story where a dudes concubine was raped, so he cut her up into pieces and sent her body parts across Israel.

People just cherry pick the bible to reinforce their own agendas, or to make themselves feel good.

Sources:
Leviticus 15:19-33
Judges 19

There is nothing of substance when it comes to homosexuality in the new testament. Most of our modern biblical texts are rife with incorrect translations, this article sums things up very well.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/bible/doesnotoppose.html

@mystory2

Yes all too often christians seem to use scripture as a stick to beat people with whom they take personal issue

@nightswatch27




So then god is a hermaphrodite?
Or do you understand that "in his image" doesn't mean we look like god?
But anyway that's not really an argument.
So he made men and women in his image. Can you explain why that somehow makes homosexuality a huge sin?

And no i'm not gay

Piano - just one thing, as it gave me a bit of a headache... We don't worship a book... we worship God, him and only.

In my opinion people are losing the meaning of what it means to be a TRUE Christian. While homosexuality is a sin, we as Christians are supposed to accept you as our brothers and sisters regardless. Also we act like God is going to hate you or something. God loves ALL of his children and he said come to him as you are. I think you have encountered what I like to call hypocrite Christians. You can't say you love everyone in the name of Jesus then blatantly disrespect certain people because of their lifestyle. Because Jesus loves you regardless.

@pianoisland

I have heard that homosexuality is often put in place of much less specific things like sexual immorality

well all sins are equally big, some people just might find it so new to them, perhaps?

I forgot all about this thread 😱

I'll adress all of it tomorrow, 2:32 right now lol

God damn. People, would it be so hard to include the person to whom you're responding?

In the image of god he created man, not woman.

Please people... look it up in the bible when you're claiming people saying stuff, we need the scriptures. I will answer you tomorrow - Monster.

Question! Are you gay?

Yeah the old rules like that was only for that time back then, Jesus set a new standard for us christians, with new rules.

Yes of course, homosexuality is not accepted in any way.

@MalteseFalconPunch

Nah. Or else why don't we see a huge and hateful resistance to premarital sex and masturbation?
I expect because everybody can relate to wanting to fuck and jack it but they get on their pedestal when it comes to homosexuality because they can't relate to it