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Spirituality & Religion

Evolution: is it necessary to know how life ultimately began in order to study and debate the evidence that evolution has since occurred?

If you think it is, why do you think so? Can you explain that reasoning for me?

I ask because i've encountered a creationist's position that the evidence for evolution can be ignored if we don't know how life began.
I point out that the theory of gravitation still allows us to study the interactions of matter without knowing how it came to be but this apt comparison appears to be ignored.

Since i've received no explanation from the parties involved, i'm coming to YOU!
So. Thoughts?馃檪

Oldest First | Newest First
firefall61-69, M
One thought: Dont argue with creationists, they are committed to their delusions and logic and reason will have no effect.
CarazaaF
[@1725,firefall] These crazy "delusional" creationists, can't think logically. But have you considered that maybe there are spiritual truths that you can't see?
CarazaaF
[@1725,firefall]Thanks a lot!
Speedyman70-79, M
As logic and reason mean nothing to people like you, why should you worry?[@1725,firefall]
Wraithorn51-55, M
I think that cognitive dissonance is playing a part in that bro. We all deal with that at some stage in our lives. In order to maintain their own peace of mind the evidence needs to be rejected somehow or they must change their mind about their belief. It's one or the other. Accept or reject.
[@385840,Wraithorn]

Well if we bases success off number of replies then it's been very successful.
If we base it off of the amount of legitimate discussion or debate....i'd say moderately successful.
But thanks馃檪
CharlieZ70-79, M
[@360493,Pikachu] 馃憦馃憦馃憦
This message was deleted by its author.
Reflection236-40, M
Bed rocks are best data base of life records added with radio dating. Evolution can even be seen with eyes but to do so, one needs to spend few years in field. Creationist can be right in limited context about;
1. Life was initiated by out side source on earth and than it was allowed to evolve.
2. Sharp jumps of species from one form to another with so much differences in Superior traits could be a phenomena more than just evolution.

But all of this is a long journey to find unanswered questions.
Speedyman70-79, M
The fact you are using words like 'we know' just proves how simplistic your arguments are and how gullibly you accept them. You will cause her present yet you say you've given us evidence-based facts. But of course if you knew all the arguments you would realise that the arguments are far too complex to put down in a blog like this. I know because I have been reading them unlike you who have just swallowed some of the simplistic arguments from an Internet site . Or perhaps you have just seen the end of Jurassic Park and think that is fact. This has dedicated one way on the other in the scientific world for a long time and at the moment the consensus leads to wards birds coming from dinosaurs but of course it is by no means unanimous even among those who believe in evolution And as we have seen many times in scientific history particularly in the history of historical signs which is fiendishly difficult to unravel , the consensus can shift away from one thing to another. Nothing is proven and if you had any sense you would realise that. The very simplicity of your arguments in a highly complex subject means that you do not understand it[@360493,Pikachu]
[@740449,Speedyman]

[quote]The fact you are using words like 'we know' just proves how simplistic your arguments are and how gullibly you accept them[/quote]

*sigh*

No, speedy. It's just something one says when referring to the scientific consensus . Calm down.

Let's see what else we have here...

Blah blah blah ... excuses not to submit any evidence or make any argument or engage on any meaningful line of debate at all ... blah blah blah ... your reflexive compulsion to insult a person when you can't argue your case like an adult ... Oh, and i see that you STILL haven't answered the question i put to you in this thread.
Imagine my surprise馃榿

Do that now or excuse yourself.
Speedyman70-79, M
I'm not insulting you at all. I'm just telling you that you are presenting no case whatsoever and that you do not know what you are talking about. It is you who are doing the blah blah blah and presenting your case like an infant. And imagine you haven't given one cohesive argument as to why you are correct . But then you were always full of hot air. The problem is that you are suffering from a case of what the psychologist called projection in that you project your own failings of somebody else. You are excusing yourself all the time so imagine my surprise . It really is quite pathetic but I expect nothing else from you on past forms. Anyway I'll disengage from you here on the grounds that Mark Twain said 'Do not argue with a fool. He will drag you down to his level and beat you by experience!' I'll now take his advice! Bye! 馃槃. [@360493,Pikachu]
GodSpeed6361-69, M
What evidence?
newjaninev251-55, F
[@764286,Bushranger] Would you like to borrow Jacinda? She鈥檒l soon set the country to rights, Hun.
Bushranger61-69, M
[@46009,newjaninev2] Wish we could. Our current crop is pretty damn ineffectual.

Still, I'm currently sitting in my motorhome in one of South Australia's lesser known opal fields, so life ain't too bad, lol.
newjaninev251-55, F
[@764286,Bushranger] Living the dream!
glori51-55, M
essentially we dont know,my theory is there is a god, just not, how we like it to be. Now the god, may have tried over and over to make creatures and made mistakes over and over, and has been doing it for billions of years.the god maybe be like the greeks thought or romans,looking down on us, and making ,mischief,like earthquakes and floods,and not the caring god we like to think it is, i doubt we will eve rknow
glori51-55, M
[@360493,Pikachu] exactly and if they threw away the chritian bible,whichis full of holes and cultural madness,
[@337574,kuminme]

It would certainly be easier without a literal interpretation of divine wisdom
glori51-55, M
[@360493,Pikachu] yes its funny hpow peopel follow it so literally,when we know the egyptians had a reliigon befor eit and the bible is a cross between judaism and egyptian religion rah,
glori51-55, M
another theory is humans came from another planet,landed on earth, maybe crash lamnded and couldnt leave so had to stay and slowly over millenium they multiplied, humans may have killed neatherdal man,henc eno missing link between the two types fo men
2BuddiesM
[@46009,newjaninev2] Yes of course. A totally fascinating subject. What will they find next?
SharonF
[@883048,2Buddies] Thank you. I'm a bit busy right now so I look at the clips later.
SharonF
[@883048,2Buddies] I've just watched those clips. For some reason the links aren't appearing on this page, I had to take them from the page source and paste them directly into my browser.

The first clip answered my question. I didn't know DNA had been extracted from Neanderthal fossils so I couldn't understand hod anyone could say that some of our DNA came from Neanderthals. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
CarazaaF
Evolution can be discussed but scientists change their mind all the time because of new developments. God doesn't change and truth remains constant, so scientists will eventually come to truth but there sure has been a lot of mistakes along the way. The beginning is important because there has to be a creator for this organized world.

Evolution is very popular because man want to dismiss God desperately, because then we have no one to account our behavior to. But there is no missing link. Where is the ape man? No where to be found. So its just a lie to ease mans anxiety that Jesus really is coming back to judge the living and the dead, yup!
GodSpeed6361-69, M
[@360493,Pikachu] [quote]That's why i said it.[/quote]

Good going. 馃憤 馃榾
[@733370,GodSpeed63]

Glad you agree馃檪
CarazaaF
[@Entwistle

I do mostly.
no because we can understand evolution and not know the first link of how first living thing started.
CarazaaF
[@733370,GodSpeed63] Amen! And he also lives in you, and me, the Holy Spirit came into my heart when I was born again!
QuixoticSoul36-40, M
[@416190,Girlyfriendcollecting] [quote]no because we can understand evolution and not know the first link of how first living thing started.[/quote]
Even more importantly, we can [i]study[/i] evolution without having every historical detail ahead of time - which is never going to happen. The part a lot of people miss is that science is a [i]process[/i].
[@580625,QuixoticSoul]

Very good point.

Evolution can be used to make [i]predictions[/i] about the real world.
MalteseFalconPunch36-40
Sure. Because otherwise you're left with "well I guess we can't study anything since we don't know everything already." That's idiotic.
[@19840,MalteseFalconPunch]

Seems pretty silly. I've yet to see anyone espousing this view validate it.
BlueMetalChick26-30, F
Evolution =/= biogenesis. People conflate the two and assume that evolution is a theory of how life began as well as how it diversified.
[@6579,BlueMetalChick]

lol aw i miss joe. He blocked me a couple months ago for calling him out on a mistake he made.
But yeah, that sounds about right
BlueMetalChick26-30, F
[@360493,Pikachu] I'm so shocked that he hasn't blocked he yet, we've been going at it for over two years now and every single time, I've stomped on his head for the duration of the argument. I know that sounds arrogant af to say about myself but from the reaction of others, it's extremely apparent. And I've gotten him to say the dumbest shit I've ever heard in my life, like "Jesus was a conservative capitalist who supported a free market economy and opposed welfare and handouts to the poor" and "Adolf Hitler was a liberal leftist progressive."
[@6579,BlueMetalChick]

lol amazing.
whowasthatmaskedman61-69, M
From a personal perspective, I am too busy living the one life I have to concern myself with the electro-chemical origins of the whole thing. And I am surely not irrational enough to believe some non physical being on a totally alternate reality decided to create something that would sing to him on Sundays.
Adaydreambeliever56-60, FVIP
I don't think it's necessary to have other than an informed idea...but the god-squad always seem to insist on detail.. then ignore it if you do give it.. and it's kinda funny they do that because their own argument consists of.. god did it/god says so.. which is pretty full of holes when you consider that they are counting on a mythical idea that has NO evidence behind it
whowasthatmaskedman61-69, M
[@7167,Adaydreambeliever] The thing about science is that "I don't know, yet" is an acceptable answer. Only control freaks have to have an explanation for everything.
Tarxarin26-30, M
No actually you don't need to know. To see evidence of evolution.

But if i had to play devil's advocate, i would tell you that its necessary because that mechanism plays a role in how life has change. We need to know its origin to understand the big picture.

But, considering that they went silent on this fact, and it offers a convenient way to ignore all of evolution as a "arguement" id say they have no idea and used it as a scapegoat to end the conversation.
[@383422,Tarxarin]

I think i see what you're saying, but i still don't think it works. Even if that prime mechanism influences how life changes, you can still observe the changes without knowing the mechanism.
Speedyman70-79, M
This is a pretty dumb question to occur under spirituality and religion as I would've thought it was better to come under science. Seems very dishonest to put it in here. Unless you find out how things started then your theory of evolution grinds to a halt. Of course we all know the theory of natural selection is true but that was known hundreds of years before Darwin anyway by anyone who would bred animals . We know that animals and bugs adapt to their situation within their own species . But of course to say all this happened without a creator unless you can prove how life actually began with nonliving matter magically forming itself into highly complicated living cells - more complicated than we can manufacture - then your Darwinian theories are a nonstarter . Three strikes and you're out mate straight away ! One for putting it here ! One for repeating yourself ! One for getting it completely wrong ! 馃槃
Speedyman70-79, M
It was coming on here just to see the ignorance there is out there from people like you . Well the good book has got a word for people like you : The fool has said in his heart there is no God. Got your number completely mate. Now if you might do a bit of research and get a bit of education on that subject instead of gullibly listening to equally ignorant people, you might come to a different conclusion. Not meeting who loses mate, it's you. Both ways. . [@621893,whowasthatmaskedman]
SharonF
[@740449,Speedyman] [quote]Now if you might do a bit of research and get a bit of education[/quote]
You should try taking that advice yourself.
whowasthatmaskedman61-69, M
[@740449,Speedyman] I have done quite a bit research, looking for a loophole you might say. Actually, Buddhism makes more sense than anything else. The idea that everything is part of the God and god is part of everything, so respecting everything is respecting god, including yourself, does have some appeal. Certainly more than the twaddle you confess to believe, distorted by your own bigotry and hate. You really should look into it. A little enlightening wouldnt do you any harm at all.馃槈
SharonF
Of course not. We can see how things change without necessarily knowing their origin.
Speedyman70-79, M
But if you're going to work at the theories of cars it is a good idea to know how they start[@379861,Sharon]
Speedyman70-79, M
Your problem is you are short on logic on anything. You have made no logical statement to advance your course and you are struck out on everything . Too bad little friend you are an intellectual wilderness 馃槃馃槃馃槃[@360493,Pikachu]
SharonF
[@740449,Speedyman] I still don't need to know how a car was started in order to see it moving.
NoSugar18-21, F
stop treating creationists, flat earthers, anti vaxxers or climate change deniers like they have a valid point and there is a discussion.

all these theories are utterly retarded and shouldnt be paid more attention to then a dog shit in the rain.
NoSugar18-21, F
[@383422,Tarxarin] the deeper problem that is worth a discussion is how do deal with misinformation... and thats an important discussion. we got so used to lies that we no longer recognize simple truth
Tarxarin26-30, M
[@542583,NoSugar] I appreciate your big picture perspective. Why do they believe in being different? Isnt it a cultural thing? Isnt it just insular.

A set of lies celebrated amongst each other?

Where do you draw the line?
newjaninev251-55, F
[@542583,NoSugar] Yes, it鈥檚 remarkable how creationists keep acting as if the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection and 鈥榞oddit鈥 were somehow equivalent, of equal merit, and that there is actually a debate to be conducted.

There isn鈥檛
Bushranger61-69, M
It's not necessary to know how life began, it obviously did otherwise this discussion wouldn't be taking place. It is necessary, however, to be able to demonstrate that evolution does occur. I believe that has been achieved. If someone can present a better hypothesis that has the same scientific rigour, let them show it.
[@733370,GodSpeed63]

[quote]If you believe that, then you don't know as much about science as claim to know.[/quote]

No, no. Don't try to talk about me. Defend your claim.
EXPLAIN your claim. Can you do that?

Don't just question my understanding of science, DEMONSTRATE that it is flawed.

Do you disagree that without knowing how life began we can still observe how it reproduces itself or how it sustains itself?
Of course you don't.

So i as you again, why do you feel it is necessary to know how life began in order to study the evidence that since that time it has evolved?
Are you or are you NOT able to explain your reasoning?
GodSpeed6361-69, M
[@360493,Pikachu] [quote]No, no. Don't try to talk about me.[/quote]

I will talk to you about it being that you have things twisted around.
[@733370,GodSpeed63]

lol ok. Talk about me.
But you must ALSO talk about the issue. You've claimed i don't understand science, that i have things twisted around.
PROVE IT.
Make your case.
Imagine you and i are on a debate stage before a crowd. You won't win the debate by telling my i have it twisted.
If you can't make your case you necessarily forfeit the debate.

You didn't address this. Please do so now.
[quote]Do you disagree that without knowing how life began we can still observe how it reproduces itself or how it sustains itself?
Of course you don't. [/quote]

So i as you again, why do you feel it is necessary to know how life began in order to study the evidence that since that time it has evolved?
Are you or are you NOT able to explain your reasoning?
Boallods22-25, M
If one does not believe in evolution due to the Scriptures, let him or her ponder over them. God created every single living creature, but nowhere that it say that the living creatures never changed. Appealing to science and logic here is futile.
Tarxarin26-30, M
[@3733,Boallods] about whether evolution is "real" the bibke puts like 5 minutes of effort into saying God made everything. Its doesnt say how or why ir anything. He came, he did it, in this order.

The end.

It even says in the bible dont pointless argue....
Boallods22-25, M
I agree the creation narrative doesn't take up much space in the Scripture.

Honestly, if some Christians didn't apply the Bible where it has nothing to say, I myself wouldn't care. But if you come to me with: "Evolution is a Satanic teaching, and here's why: *reads first three chapters of Genesis*" than we have a problem. The Scripture DOES NOT reject evolution. Anyone who claims otherwise is abusing God's word. That's heresy.
causernamebemyusername26-30, M
[@3733,Boallods] You make sense. It doesn't tell us the mechanism of how God made things, just that he did. When someone tells me they made a cake they don't tell me the recipe as a way of describing it. Making is the act. Evolution COULD be a mechanism of that making.
Also the evidence for gravity can be ignored, if we don't know how it came to be...
causernamebemyusername26-30, M
[@644633,blooblookookoo] I don't know who made this cake so I can't eat it:(
[@406636,causernamebemyusername] uhm, has there anybody mentioned any cake that's in play now? uhm, so where is the line, i want a piece of it too.
causernamebemyusername26-30, M
[@644633,blooblookookoo] Don't know. So hungry:'(
QuixoticSoul36-40, M
Working with the evidence you have, instead of knowing everything from the get-go, is kind of the [i]point[/i] of science. Which people who advocate pointless navel-gazing usually miss.
newjaninev251-55, F
[@740449,Speedyman] you鈥檙e saying that 3.5 billion years is not long enough? it seems like it might be...

Do tell me what you think Schr枚dinger's thought experiment has to do with that
Speedyman70-79, M
Yes three .5 billion years is not long enough. Cleverer people than they have estimated the time [@46009,newjaninev2]
newjaninev251-55, F
[@740449,Speedyman] Cleverer than whom?

It鈥檚 not a question of how clever someone is... it鈥檚 a question of the evidence.

The Earth formed 4.5 billion years ago, there was no life for a billion years, and then abiogenesis took place 3.5 billion years ago.

To put that into perspective...

Spread your arms wide in an expansive gesture to span all of evolution from abiogenesis at your left fingertip across to today at your right fingertip, 3.5 billion years later.

From your left fingertip to well past your right shoulder, life consists of nothing but bacteria.

Multi-cellular, invertebrate life develops somewhere around your right elbow.

The dinosaurs originate in the middle of your right palm, and go extinct around your last finger joint.

The entire history of [i]Homo sapiens[/i] and our predecessor [i]Homo erectus[/i] is contained in the thickness of a nail clipping.

As for [i]recorded[/i] history; the Sumerians, the Babylonians, the Jewish patriarchs, the dynasties of Pharaohs, the legions of Rome, the Christian Fathers, the Laws of the Medes and Persians, as for Troy and the Greeks, Helen and Achilles and Agamemnon, as for Napoleon and Hitler, the Beatles and Bill Clinton, they and everyone that knew them are blown away in [i]the dust of one feather-like stroke[/i] of a nail file.
SW User
Although I am a universal believer that there is an 鈥榚ssence鈥 have it 鈥楳aker鈥 if you wish, I still teach science and believe the evidence to be overwhelming indeed so I leave everyone with this light hearted soundtrack 馃槀

馃悞
Our whole universe was in a hot, dense state
Then nearly fourteen billion years ago expansion started, wait
The earth began to cool, the autotrophs began to drool
Neanderthals developed tools
We built a wall (we built the pyramids)
Math, science, history, unraveling the mysteries
That all started with the big bang! Hey!
Since the dawn of man is really not that long
As every galaxy was formed in less time than it takes to sing this song
A fraction of a second and the elements were made
The bipeds stood up straight, the dinosaurs all met their fate
They tried to leap but they were late
And they all died (they froze their asses off)
The oceans and Pangea, see ya wouldn't wanna be ya
Set in motion by the same big bang!
It all started with the big bang!
It's expanding ever outward but one day
It will cause the stars to go the other way
Collapsing ever inward, we won't be here, it won't be hurt
Our best and brightest figure that it'll make an even bigger bang!
Australopithecus would really have been sick of us
Debating how we're here, they're catching deer (we're catching viruses)
Religion or astronomy (Descartes or Deuteronomy)
It all started with the big bang!
Music and mythology, Einstein and astrology
It all started with the big bang!
It all started with the big bang!
馃悞馃悞馃悞
room10151-55, M
[@480035,DrScissorhandss] 馃槀馃槀馃槀
Speedyman70-79, M
'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. ' Yes it started with the Big Bang! Incidentally not with the steady-state theory as many atheists had always believed [@480035,DrScissorhandss]
room10151-55, M
You and I have crossed paths many times before so I hope that you remember that I am a person of faith who wholly and unreservedly accepts Darwinian evolution. Consequently, I have no answers to your question. Well, maybe one.

Literal creationism is a rather American phenomenon. Here in Europe, the Theory of Evolution was accepted by all of the main churches decades ago. Yes, even Catholicism. It has also been accepted by Judaism for just as long. But it is still an issue in America. It is still an issue among American 鈥渂elievers鈥.

Why is that?

Remember, these are the same people who voted for, and still support, trump. A person who by any measure should be their personification of the Anti-Christ.

I rest my case.馃槈
Budwick70-79, M
[@176964,room101] Do Bibles in Europe include the book of Genesis?
CarazaaF
[@176964,room101] Excuse you! Mindless parrots? I think I am done here thank you!
room10151-55, M
[@889684,Carazaa] That wasn't directed at you. I hoped that you would see that by the simple fact that I have engaged with you but have ignored everybody else. Looking at your overall interactions on this discussion, you come across as somebody who actually gives some thought to the subject matter.
Budwick70-79, M
[quote] is it necessary to know how life ultimately began in order to study and debate the evidence that evolution has since occurred?[/quote]

Apparently not. Proponents of evolution are constantly trying to jam the beginning and evolution down the throats of Creationists.

Personally, I think the evolutionists think they have Creationists by the short hairs, cuz they think they have an answer for everything. They think they are at least as smart or smarter than God.

This post like so many other 'scientific' posts is really a veiled attack on those that believe in God.
[@841775,Budwick]

I suppose if you're thin-skinned enough, even a difference of opinion feels like an attack馃檪

Good morning.
Budwick70-79, M
[@360493,Pikachu] A difference of opinion - is that all it is?

I think it's fascinating that you write posts like this, once or twice a month. In each one you and sometimes one of your science pals end up ganging up on some Christian that offered up his / her 'difference of opinion'.

Even now, you are making me out to be some kind of bad guy for having the gall to be offended by your badgering of Christians.
Speedyman70-79, M
Don't mind him - he likes appearing self-righteous. It makes people like him feel good. They probably can't get a feel good factor in the real world so they try and get it on the Internet[@841775,Budwick]

 
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