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Eighty Years On - Will We Ever Learn?

Eighty years since the first atomic bomb used in anger was exploded about 800 metres above Hiroshima.

Around 140 000 people were killed by the blast, heat and ionising radiation; many others were appallingly badly injured, or developed cancers later from the radiation.

A few days later a second was detonated above Nagasaki.

They did end the Second World War, which in Asia revolved around Japan's imperialist ambitions: she had invaded China in the 1930s, among other countries.

However, it was at terrible civilian cost because like an earlier, massive USAAF bombing raid on Tokyo using conventional weapons, these were deliberately dropped on civilian cities.

Not military targets, as the US government tried deceitfully to claim at the time, while the US President callously claimed it as saving "thousands of young American lives" (US Services' volunteers and conscripts.)


We can all hope the Nagasaki one was the second and last ever to be used.


Those two bombs were designed by a UK/USA consortium of physicists and engineers, not only Americans, but the decision to use them was taken by the Americans alone without consulting their allies.

They had intended yields of 20kilotonnes TNT equivalent. The Hiroshima one seems not to "used" all its enriched uranium, so the actual blast was nearer 16kt. (The rest of the uranium would have been evaporated in the explosion, and condensed among the fallout.)


The result?

Ending the War in Europe had included stopping the Nazis developing the atomic bomb; but since then the Soviet bloc and NATO countries built terrifying arsenals of uranium-fission bombs far more powerful than those two dropped on Japan; and the vastly more powerful hydrogen-fusion bomb of tens of Megatonne TNT equivalents.

The USA placed many of its nuclear bombs, both aircraft-delivered and on ballistic missiles, in Britain. Although that locating would have needed British agreement, we now know the USA would not have sought agreement or prior knowledge to launch them. Essentially the USA saw her allies' territories as sacrificial launch-pads, but was very well aware her own territory would have been a Soviet target too.


Those arsenals and associated war installations have been reduced by post-Soviet treaties, but the Russian Federation and the United States of America, and to a lesser extent the UK (and other NATO countries?) still have them; and we now see unpredictable regimes like North Korea and Iran building them in an increasingly precarious world.

....

Today Hiroshima is marking the anniversary with a memorial event in its "Peace Park" gardens established below the detonation point when the city was rebuilt.

The whole world must note, learn and never forget.
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samueltyler2 · 80-89, M
I was disturbed by much of what I saw when I visited Hiroshima. The thing that disturbed perhaps the most, was the lack of a theme, WAR no more! As I recall it, there was nothing about avoiding "conventional war."

The memorial misses the point that all war is deadly. Wars are started by someone, and just be prevented.

There is a prayer in our Friday night shabbos service that, i paraphrase, it is not sufficient to only turn weapons into ploughshares, but continue to make those into musical instruments. That way, to go to war one would first have to make the musical instruments into ploughshares.
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@samueltyler2 As much as a completely agree with the sentiment you express. I realise that humans got to the top of the food chain by being the meanest, nastiest and deliberately cruel and selfish creatures on the planet. I do not see the day when we will not have to be prepared to defend ourselves against each other..😷
Northwest · M
What convinced the US planners to use the bomb, was the battle for Okinawa.

We can Monday-quarterback as much as we want, but I am convinced that the US was looking at 1 million casualties to "win" the war.

The raids on Dresden (driven by Churchil's desire for revenge) and Tokyo, killed more people than Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

83 years later, I live in the Nagasaki shadow. We still have not figured out how to get rid of the highly unstable sludge, stored in underground tanks at the Hanford Nuclear Reservation, threatening an area that includes Seattle and Portland. Every time I drive by it, I'm reminded of Aug 9, 1945.

A significant number of scientists involved in the Manhattan Project were neither British nor American. Many were refugees, primarily from Europe, who had fled Hitler's persecution.
Northwest · M
@FoxyQueen

I already know humans are the worst towards each other.

Homo homini lupus.

I don't research wars

I like history. It helps us understand what we area, and why we are the way we are. Most importantly, it provides an opportunity to learn from our successes and mistakes. For instance, if people rewind the clock only 100 years, they would recognize how fascism, and nationalism evolved, leading to absolutely nothing good, and how we're going now through a déjà vu, that put Trump in power, without realizing that history is going to repeat itself.

But if you live in an area where they obsess over civil war enactment, you might understand why these folks do not heed the lessons of history. If they're interested in learning anything at all.

Unfortunately, history is shaped by war.
FoxyQueen · 51-55, F
@Northwest I tend to think that so many people have not been impacted by actual war since the 60's, which would include the Silent Generation who aren't around in numbers to remind us of these things. Because of that, we have no point of personal reference to determine what is fascist propaganda and what isn't. Also, white supremacy have been on a rampant rise in the last 20 years, expanding into not just Christian cultures, but new age and pagan and when mixed with woo, becomes a whole other instrument of danger.

I know people here who can tell me the minutest details of civil war battles, but not why we had a civil war. That truth is too difficult to admit that you wanted people to be property, but not pay property taxes on them. Which, no matter how it is viewed is an absolute garbage position to have. So it's easier to focus on the battles where they don't have to view their positions.
craig7 · 70-79, M
@Northwest Many believe that the Dresden attack was also a warning to the Red Army of just what the RAF was able to do. It's also true that Dresden,and the great incendiary raid on Tokyo a few weeks later are frequently overlooked - as is the terrible experience of Okinawa casting grave doubt on plans to invade the Japanese home islands in November 1945.
FreddieUK · 70-79, M
The whole world must note, learn and never forget.

I agree. However, in each country lurks an ideology of 'warmongering' which doesn't want to forget the 'glorious' past or learn anything about an alternative future. Those of us moved by the horrors of war must always be prepared to stand up for seeking every possible way to avoid it. Nevertheless, if confronted by a militaristic regime intent on taking over your country or subverting your cherished values, a measure of force will be needed and not just civil disobedience and singing emotional songs.
DeWayfarer · 61-69, M
Never forget. Yet this wasn't the cause of civilians being targeted in that war.

A interesting Japanese documentary on NHK refers to why that bomb was used. The Japanese were using their own civilians, especially women, in the actual war. This lead to the use of such terrible forces.

Picture the Gaza situation with women and children combatants. That's how fanatical the Japanese were.

Neither situation was justifiable.
DeWayfarer · 61-69, M
@ArishMell By no means do I suggest either was right. Yet that war was a significant reason why civilians have been used ever since.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@DeWayfarer Civilians were already becoming victims in World War One, though perhaps not as cynically and deliberately as they are now.
DeWayfarer · 61-69, M
@ArishMell listen. My great grandfather insisted that my grandfather move to the USA along with the other siblings to other countries just before WWI.

Yet asked them all to return to Czechoslovakia in the 1920s. WWII caught him by surprise though.

He got shot and my father was sent to prison camp as a political prisoner. My grandfather had already died of a blood clot. None of my family were in any form of military during either WWI or WWII. Politics was a different story. Politics got great grandfather shot.
Lugwho · 61-69, M
I would recommend Hiroshima by John Hersey. Well worth a read.
Diotrephes · 70-79, M
@ArishMell A Japanese man survived both blasts and finally died of old age. The US used to drop nukes on American soldiers.
@Diotrephes everyone loves the USA.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@Diotrephes There were indeed survivors, but they were very lucky to have lived long lives afterwards.

Hiroshima was more or less flattened but the destruction and death-tool were lower in Nagasaki where the bomb exploded two or three miles from the intended spot, and the topography sheltered some areas.


What was your second accusation about? If that had happened it would have become common knowledge right from the start, impossible to keep secret.

What they did do (and so did the UK), was place soldiers within some miles of test detonations to assess the effects... They did not "drop" the weapons, let alone "on" the troops. The bombs were static, and the men put at what was considered far enough to avoid burning or blast damage but still be subject to intense radiation, including the heat and light.

In one US test living goats were tethered on the deck of a ship moored close enough for them to be badly burnt. I recall seeing a photograph of the poor creatures, fur gone, severe burns, as expected and presumably intended.

The idea was probably to gauge injuries and treatment; but it is hard to imagine why anyone in charge would think of, and be approved, performing such a cruel experiment on any living animal, whether goat or human.

All they had to do was talk to the Japanese......
Diotrephes · 70-79, M
@ArishMell
What was your second accusation about? If that had happened it would have become common knowledge right from the start, impossible to keep secret.

There are videos of the actual events on the internet. Google them. And the bombs were dropped from planes and the troops were in trenches.
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
After all this time it doesnt seem we have learned a thing..😷
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wrule · F
Putin and Netanyahu surely are the two who have not learned anything at all.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@wrule They haven't but they are by no means alone in that.

 
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