a fossil fueled device is used to power another device.
The data I presented shows that even when fossil fuel is the major source of electricity, electric cars use HALF the energy and generate HALF the CO2 of similar gas cars. Scroll up, the data is RIGHT THERE!!
Were do you think electricity comes from - hint 70% from coal
@MarmeeMarch DUUUDE!!! You're the first person I've encountered who can't tell the difference between natural gas & coal. In particular, natural gas has a VERY different carbon footprint from coal.
Did you notice that natural gas & coal occupy different sectors on the pie chart? That's because they have very different environmental impacts. Did you notice nuclear has its own pie slice too? Again, different environmental impact.
Your attempt to hide your error by making incompatible groupings is a failure.
AND, as I've said before, and you keep ignoring, even when fossil fuel is the major source of electricity, electric cars use HALF the energy and generate HALF the CO2 of similar gas cars.
Electric cars are far better than gasoline powered cars, both in terms of lifetime energy consumed and in terms of carbon footprint.
Analysts in this sector use what they call "life cycle costs" to sum up all the manufacturing, operation, and recycling costs, both in dollars and in CO2. The short answer is that unless you are fueling your electric car with pure coal based electricity, lifecycle costs of electric are far lower, both in dollars and in CO2.
These graphs are for Vancouver CA in 2018, so energy costs are similar to the US; however energy is represented in megajoules - there are 3.6 MJ in a KWH, and 1 MJ = .37 horsepower hours. It assumes 150,000Km of travel over the life of the car, about 93,000 miles.
Lifecycle CO2 costs (these include extracting & transporting oil)
The world has 8,000 gigawatts of installed electricity generation capacity, according to the International Energy Agency. In theory, if the capacity ran 24-7 it could generate 69 million gigawatt hours of electricity annually.
The world consumed about 27 million gigawatt hours of electricity in 2019. That electricity warmed homes and ran businesses. What’s more, the world consumed the equivalent of roughly 28 million gigawatt hours of electrical energy to power its cars and trucks. That energy, of course, was stored in liquid fuel. Power plants didn’t have to generate it. Gasoline and diesel make most of the world’s vehicles go.
So 27 plus 28 is 56. The world needs 56 million gigawatt hours to keep the lights on as well as drive cars and trucks. There is 69 million gigawatt hours of capacity.No problem. But the generating capacity of wind and solar, of course, can’t be “on” 100% of the time. And even coal, nuclear, and hydro power plants have to take maintenance downtime. Still, there looks to be some spare generating capacity and the world’s 2 billion or so vehicles won’t convert to battery power all at once.
That was directed at the other user but even if they are cheaper to power and maintain overall, that doesn't mean people can afford them as they are expensive. I'm for slower integration of electric cars into society. @SW-User
you are putting a demand for more electricity - and renewable energy only produces 20% of the electrical power in the US
Did you look at any of the data I presented? The bottom graph, labeled "Lifecycle energy costs" is about energy consumption. Did you notice that the lifecycle energy usage of the EV was about half that of the gas vehicle?
Perhaps this is counterintuitive, but it turns out burning fossil hydrocarbons in a grid scale electricity plant and then charging up batteries is FAR more efficient then fossil hydrocarbons in a gas powered car. FAR more efficient in terms of CO2 and in terms of ENERGY.
most new houses come with 100 amp electric service. you're going to need a 75 amp electric service to charge it meaning you almost double your electric bill. we're going to need a bigger windmill
I take it your car has its charger, or an auxiliary regulator for an external charger, built in, then?
I think almost all EVs (except the very cheapest) have an onboard switched mode power supply that converts the 230 V supply to the 400 V (or 800 V in some newer cars) battery voltage. And most of them have some ability to control the current they draw. In my car, Tesla S, it is selectable in 1 A increments from 5 A to 30 A. Other brands have similar features but in some the settings are just low, medium, and high I believe.
@Diotrephes There are a lot of unknowns in the EV business at the moment simply because we haven't had modern EVs for very long. The question is not how much a battery replacement will cost but how much will such costs be over the lifetime of the vehicle. That is how much does it cost together with how often it will need replacing.
Vehicle owners today are keeping their automobiles longer then ever. The average lifespan of a vehicle is currently 13 -17 years while the average age is 11.5 years.
Tesla's warranty is eight years, some other manufacturers have similar warranties. So we would expect at most one battery replacement in the lifetime of the vehicle. So then you can simply add the cost of one battery replacement to the purchase price of the car if you want to get a pessimistic estimate of the 'capital' cost of the vehicle.
Battery replacement costs vary wildly at the moment, I have seen online prices from less than 5 kUSD for a 24 kWh leaf battery replacement in the US to 21 000 USD for a 80 kWh Model S in Finland. This suggests to me that the market is simply not mature enough or large enough to generate effective competition yet. Once there are enough EVs on the road there will be a market for third party battery suppliers and prices will stabilize.
So at a very rough estimate it seems to me that adding say 5 to 10 thousand USD to the price of an EV would price in the potential costs of battery replacement over the life time of the vehicle.
I will never ever ever own one. I like my real engines and vehicles with character. I like being able to tinker on my stuff. Also, low key, electric cars are a gov control tactic for private transport. Who controls the grid? The gov. You can grow your own fuel for internal combustion, and oil is harder for them to control. I sense an ulterior motive.
@ShadowWolf When right-wingers switch from offering debate points to throwing insults, that's their way of conceding defeat. Thanks for your (not very gracious) concession!!
@ElwoodBlues Or just not wasting my time with a Marxist. I studied Russian history. You guys (Marxists like Lenin) never shut up. I have better things to do. Good day.
I've bought gas powered cars and trucks for less than $2000 and drove them for 10+ years with only relatively minor repairs. One in particular I managed to put over 100,000 miles on. When I can buy an electric car or truck that cheap that will do what I need it to do and run it for 10 years/100,000 miles without spending any significant amount on maintenance and repairs maybe I'll consider it. Right now I don't see it happening.
Green-washing. They are definitely an alternative, but they are not the solution. The might 'clean' up the air in cities, but that just means the 'emissions' are occuring in other ways. They still require gross raping of the earth's natural resources to create, build, operate, maintain, and dispose of.
EV's require enormous amounts of electrical energy to charge, in most parts of the world infrastructure to do that is effectively non existent yet. Battery capacity it too low for most practical real-world uses. Many people no longer do standard day time only jobs so charging at home at night means power can only come from the grid as solar charging doesn't work at night.
I could be wrong but my gut feeling says is its going to turn out to be the next lemon thats going to cost people a ton of money. Not everyone can afford to go out and buy an new car. Not everyone lives where public transportation is readily available. I will buy a skateboard and just wait it out to see.
@Adrift The basic 'average' pricing of vehicles won't change as the cost to make them will be higher and the impost to dispose of them at end-of-life will be higher. Plus a massive uptake of electric vehicles requires a massive upgrade of the electricity grid infrastructure as not everyone can afford to get or wants to get rooftop solar (perhaps plus batteries). But it's safe to assume people willing to spend $150k on a Tesla model S are also willing to spend big on solar and batteries because they are 'trendy' at the moment. And they are willing to have their home power setup upgraded regardless of cost to add in an EV fast-charger since charging off a standard Australian 240 VAC 10 amp house powerpoint only permits a max 2.4 KWh of energy draw (or 3.6 KWh with a 15 A one) and that will not 'fully refuel' any current EV overnight presuming it's parked up approx 10 to 12 hrs if the person has normal day hours only weekday only job. A 32 A 'industrial' 240 VAC outlet requires a special circuit and many older properties don't have the right capacity from the grid or the right setup of main switch box to support an extra high-current 'domestic setup' load.
@Adrift I think it will be great. You will still be able to buy used cars with gas engines and the electric car should help the price of gasoline because they will use less gasoline in the world. So it should be a win win.
@Budwick Thanks for the welcome. And true about the fossil fuel. That's why we should be working on solutions now. The Evs in their current form may not be the final solution, but it is a step in the right direction.
@Paladin I won't disagree with that. Developing technology is terrific.
Just don't force it down out throats - that's all I'm saying. Killing the oil industry today when there's no viable alternative ready, to take it's place is lunacy. [I realize you didn't suggest that - I'm pointing out that it is the current policy.]
Currently too damn expensive. Although the Left keeps on saying that Supply and Demand along with Economics 101 will lower the Cost of EVs. Which is a pipe dream for them. Because for the past 70 years, vehicles have never ever decreased in price except when they are in the Used or Formerly Owned category. Low Battery Mileage and Luxury Status will keep 90% or more of the US Population from ever buying an EV. And there is one Major Auto Manufacturer that will be building a EV for the masses and it'll be priced below $15k US. The range of a full charge is only 74 US miles. Sorry folks, it's not Tesla.
Would I buy one? Yes if I won the Lottery, I would buy the upcoming 2024 Chevrolet Silverado E.
Very practical with our current car infrastructure for short to medium range. But ultimately, they need to be mostly phased out in favor of more efficient transit options like trams, trains, and bikes... well, except for the small minority of disabled people who can't really bike around comfortably.
@BlueVeins if you'd ever do some research, you would discover that we did have trams all over the place at one time. And some places still have them. Like San Fransico, New Orleans, and Chicago.
There are NO public charging stations in my town, and I don't think there are any in my state. People who live in apartment buildings or high rises will be effed. That is...IF they can afford electric vehicles at all.
People who are freaking out at the size of their electric bill already, (to the point where they only use ONE 60 watt bulb during the day), will never be able to afford the electric if they have to charge a vehicle.
This is so premature it's like a bad joke. The technology is too new.
They are fine. The problem is the long charge times, limited range, lack of charging or battery exchanging infrastructure, and not to mention the price.
I work for a tiny battery-pack manufacturer for electric mopeds, forklifts and other light to ultra-light vehicles. In my experience, the battery is the biggest challenge. Batteries have a limited life, so their replacement cost will have to be factored into the vehicle usage.
@Lanyx The battery pack is a huge huge issue. The replacement costs range from 10,000 USD to 30,000 USD, and as you know, every full cycle, the range will decrease over time, requiring more charges. Long term, there are next to no savings, or cost benefits compared to a traditional car. For the price of a replacement battery pack, you can have three engines replaced with brand new ones.
EV's are great if you're on a forklift, golfcart, etc. on flat ground travelling less than a few hundred yards with a convenient place to recharge them...
but wholly impractical for long distance transportation over hills & mountains while hauling/towing cargo; batteries are too inefficient as a source of "fuel" without on board generation (diesel-electric); and they'll never achieve the power to weight ratio and longevity of a fueled engine. Batteries have too many flaws that are inherent to their design, limited by simple physics, and will never be overcome; accept it, it's a dead end technology.
This isnt a straightforward problem.. But the pieces to the puzzle are simple enough. From there you make your own personal decision. I wont factor in purchase cost.. Thats an individual decision many of us just dont have a choice in, so I will skip that hurdle. First. Electic driven vehicles deliver much better energy to the road under driving conditions that any other fuel. So for every Kw of energy you put in, you get more back. Stop/start driving is the killer of any other fuel efficiency not only as it accellerates mass. But as the combustion ratios change and waste fuel terribly. Next an internal combustion engine burning anything will perform best at constant speed under constant load. This principle is best demonstrated in the heavy Diesel/Electic trains. Third, A hydrogen fuel cell does not burn Hydrogen in the manner of an internal cumbustion engine, but breaks it chemically and produces electricity in doing so. Hydrogen is also capable of being produced in an environmentally friendly manner from water and returns as water vapour, without other pollutants. And hydrogen Fuel cell powered car does not need a battery pack. And can be refueled in normal car filling times. Now I know which I will be looking at for my new car. But thats a decade off.😷
Not enough range yet for me and no as efficient as a hybrid. Let's go through the numbers. By comparison one gallon of gasoline is 33.7 kw hours. A gasoline engine is 32.5% efficient So out of every gallon of gasoline you use you only get 10.95 kw hours. So for 50 mpg that means you use 0.219 kw hours per mile. 100 miles * .219= 21.9 kW hours. Tesla figures 34 kW hours per 100 miles. So a Tesla is 64% as efficient as a gasoline engine getting 50 mpg. So my Prius is 33% more efficient than a Tesla. The electric motors must be generating a lot of heat!
@Tastyfrzz They do. Almost all electrical equipment, and most moving machinery of any type anyway, loses some energy by converting it into heat. Hence the cooling-fan built into most motors or clamped to the CPU in a computer.
If your petrol Prius is lighter than its nearest all-electric equivalent, it obviously also gains by less of its own mass to accelerate and keep moving - but that might be partly compensated for by the BEV lacking an alternator, cooling-fan and pump; and in many models by regenerative braking.
I find a bicycle a lot less boring than a car actually, but that’s me. I am glad we all don’t like the same things, life would definitely be boring..@Nimbus
“If the whole world follows through and gets to 140 million electric cars by 2030, the IEA [International Energy Agency] estimates that will reduce emissions by just 190 million tonnes of CO₂—a mere 0.4 percent of global emissions."
The International Energy Agency (IEA) estimates that if every nation achieves their ambitious targets on increasing electric car ownership, it will reduce CO2 emissions in this decade by 235 million tons.
- Also Bjorn Lomborg
This guy doesn't sound too reliable. Why does he keep changing his numbers? Also, electric vehicles are only PART of the approach to carbon reduction; why does the esteemed Mr Lomborg pretend they're everything?
@iamelijah Did you know that an electric car generates more CO2 over its lifetime than an ICE vehicle of similar size? The amount of energy required to make one of those batteries is truly amazing. Between mining and purifying the lithium etc.... Sadly the battery can not be recycled and every time you need a new one....
@iamelijah carbon safe is just stupid to even think, let alone say. Most electricity in the world is from coal fired plants. It takes more electricity to charge a battery then run a device, than to power it directly. Lost efficiency. Electric cars are just novel at best.
@ExtremeNext The electric buses here are limited to the routes they do. If there is a big hill they are banned. They tried it once but the bus ran out of juice 3/4 of the way up the hill and they had to send in a diesel bus to pick up the passengers who were getting cold by the time the replacement bus came along.
@ExtremeNext We have battery-operated light rail in Newcastle (au not uk). It replaced the last few km of the heavy rail line when the gov opted to rip it out and hand the land to private developers.
At this point in time they seem impractical and unfashionable. But with some logistics and better design I can see them being the way forward for the generations that follow.
@JackieDaytona hydrogen fueled vehicles will be cleaner and current major engine manufacturers like Cummins are currently developing them. And so is Peugeot-FCA aka Stellantis. Plus Kawasaki along with Yamaha.
@dakotaviper I was watching some videos on hydrogen electric. They seem to work better than electric for the bigger trucks used for delivery. The hydrogen vehicles are easier and faster to charge. Toyota put theirs through some heavy duty safety tests. If we had more hydrogen stations, I would lean more towards buying a hydo than electric.
Mixed -- a lot depends on the source of electricity. If you're charging non-polluting cars with electricity from coal-fired plants, then it has its faults.
@TheOneyouwerewarnedabout The other major party hasn't got any better solution. Electric vehicles arent better - they're just different. Transportation still requires energy, and most electric vehicles are heavier than their petrol/diesel equivalents so require more energy to move them.
I love the little remote controlled ones you can get at Hobby Lobby or Walmart. They can be amusing for hours as long as you keep charging the batteries.
Don’t want an electric car I have an electric bike. I can even charge it up by solar if I wanted to but it’s easier to plug into the wall. If an electric car could be charged by a solar panel that would be a great thing .
@Repete Thanks for the info. I think I am leaning towards the commuter model. After spending $41.00 just to top off my gas tank, I dicided that an e bike with a rack to cruise and run errands on would eventually pay for itself.
I think it works great . I have saddlebags, actually they can be almost any backpack , I’ve put hooks on them so it’s easy to pop on or off I have had over 50 lbs on the back of mine. 😂 I had a bushel of clams on the back in two saddlebags. It wasn’t meant for that but it worked and still made the hills.@Adrift
@Dino11 remote areas? How many major metropolitan areas here in the USA still suffer from brownouts? Or just refer to the Electric Grid SNAFU that happen in Texas recently. No One from the Left is even thinking about that at all.
@Dino11 exactly. Because everyone that says EVs are the best things since sliced bread, think that all you have to do is plug it into any electrical outlet.
SW-User
My thoughts are:
"Petrol is now costing approximately $8.50 a gallon, and I have a Volkswagen ID3😎"
The battery is the weak point. Huge load to carry, huge safety issues with the battery, battery is an environmental disaster waiting to happen, there isn't enough material in the world to make all the batteries we would need for an all electric fleet, the batteries don't provide enough electricity in really cold temperatures.
@Spoiledbrat I have no problem with how any spends their money. I have a huge problem when the government has to subsidize and mandate the use of an inferior technology. From my perspective if you want a battery electric or a diesel electric or a gasoline electric have at it. The weakest link is the battery component. There simply is no way to make one that works as well as fossil fuels.
@zonavar68 I don't know the cost of a Tesla S in the UK, nor even if it is sold here; but the basic electric cars seem to start around £25-30 000 new. A second-hand one is likely to need new batteries soon after, if not at the time of, purchase, so hardly worth it.
I read a review of Audi's top-range, eye-wateringly expensive, electric cars; whose fastest has a claimed top speed of about 150mph! I don't suppose its range would be very great at that speed, but how pointless anyway. I don't know if the German autobahns are still unlimited but the maximum legal speed in Britain is 70mph (and that only on motorways and dual-carriageways); and many other countries have similar or only slightly higher limits.
@ArishMell In Australia highways except in NT are often 100 or 110 kph. In NT many roads used to have no speed limit but most of them now are set to 130 kph. You couldn't buy a low-end Tesla here for much under $50k, and like you say if you buy one that's up to 5+ yrs old it'll have a degraded battery module.
@zonavar68 I had to convert that speed, but it is pretty much the same as our maximum (70mph) on the motorways.
One of the most popular battery-electric cars in the UK had been the Nissan 'Leaf', and I think still is. It is quite a bit cheaper than an a Tesla; but like all such vehicles, still very expensive and I would think with rapid depreciation and uncertain second-hand value.
