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The "Civilised" approach to crime, punishment and justice is all wrong.

In the first place it goes against the Darwinian principles of human psychology that will doom it to failuire in the same way Communism is doomed to fail. It doesnt recognize the true nature of man.
The primary goal of the justice system is to apprehend and prove the guilt of a wrongdoer.. So far, so good.. But then we concern ourselves with the rights of the criminal, his or her welfare and rehabilitation and probable re entry into society. (I know we dont do any of that well. But that is the stated aim) And I have come to the conclusion that this whole approach is wrong.
First. We set way too many arbitrary rules and limits on each other. Only the following principles should apply. Is there harm, damage or cost to another party? (How thats defined can be worked out later) If not, there is no offence.. If so, that harm can be quanified.. At this level , even littering or grafitti is damage and can be quantified.
At that time, a penalty can be imposed, financial, custodial or whatever. But the difference is that once convicted, the criminal has their right to return to society suspended. Society can choose to deprive them of a vote, employment, liberty or even life, if they deem this person will be a risk of more harm to the law abiding members of society. The law should not protect the criminal. The law should be firmly behind those who are not criminals, to protect them. This turns Blackstones ration on it head.
"it is better that 100 guilty persons should escape than that one innocent person should suffer". Attributed to Benjamin Franklin. A fine ideal. But it puts society at risk from the guilty. In nature, in particular with our nearest relatives, the primates, we see those who break the laws of the group shunned, banished or killed, for the good of the tribe. No appeal. No legal technicalities. No rehabilitation. And no repeat offenders.. And pretty much everyone follows the rules that promote harmony in the group..
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DeWayfarer · 61-69, M
Not saying I have any answers, yet there's too many factors not taken into account in this.

The capitalist system being one of the biggies. Yet as well some misunderstandings in what happens in nature.

Believe or not, occasionally the banished rogue, might eventually become the leader of the pack.

It's a weird, yet often misunderstood, phenomenon.

We are not that different from our ancient ancestors in the animal kingdom.

Look who is in office today.
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@DeWayfarer I agree. We are not that different. And yet the society we live in assumes we are way more evolved than we are. Thats the basic problem. We really need to protect those people there is good in by dealing more effectively (however you want to work that out) with those who dont have a "better nature".😷
dancingtongue · 80-89, M
The difficulty is three-fold, imho. At least with the U.S. system. I cannot speak to the Australian system of justice.

1. We have too many laws on the books rooted in outright systemic discrimination -- the long history of marijuana prosecution because it was predominantly used in the Black community originally is a prime example -- or are just outdated oppression of lower classes, and too many law enforcement personnel who enforce the laws in unequal and discriminatory patterns to benefit those in power.

2. We have far too many attorneys, creating an overly-litigious society that King George III warned us about, and constantly in search of loopholes and obscure technicalities for either prosecution or defense.

3. We have totally given up on any attempts at rehabilitation in our prisons for those convicted of even minor crimes. The prisons largely have been privatized, and they pay minimal pay for guards who are largely unsupervised and see their jobs solely as treating inmates in nearly, and sometimes not even nearly, criminal ways themselves. They have become criminal factories where people are incarcerated for relatively minor infractions, become recruited into criminal gangs out of self-preservation, and come out bigger criminals than they were going in. If they ever were a threat to society to begin with.

It is a complex conundrum that cannot be solved with weighing in on only one side.
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@dancingtongue I agree with you on all three points. All laws should involve harm or damage to another. That should thin the books down. And on that basis, Most cases should not need attornies. A Judge and their clerks should be able to see the damage withing minutes in the simplified statutes and the penalty applied, with very limit room to appeal. And there is no way a rich or powerful person gets a much reduced penalty.😷
AthrillatheHunt · 51-55, M
I’m against the death penalty , but anyone who murders is a threat to society and should be permanently removed. People behave differently when they know there’s no second chances. Keeps them civilized .
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whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@AthrillatheHunt A nice idea. I would need to see it work before I agreed..😷
RachelLia2003 · 22-25, F
in these days you keep forgetting to add this > 😷

take your vitamins and go see your doc
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@whowasthatmaskedman I think appealing to our better selves is important.

Selfishness has destroyed all sorts of good things.
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@SomeMichGuy I agree completely. But its who we are. Put a person under pressure regarding their lives or their family (which American society is really good at) and he will turn on you to protect them..😷
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The first bit is nonsense since "human nature" is not real.


And the "justice system" you described is literally how street gangs carry out discipline within their ranks. This is a territory idea.
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow I agree on that last part. The America (and some other) systems onlt pay lip service to what they claim to support. My ideas would strip away all protection from everyone who transgressed. Even the rich and powerful and the authorities. Commit the offence do the harm. Pay the price. anyway. As the title of the group said at the start, this was always going to be an unpopular opinion and it seems to have cost me at least one friend already. So I will stop now I think.😷
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow No. The opposite. I am claiming human nature based on the bible is unrealistic.😷
@whowasthatmaskedman Human nature as a concept is based on biblical ideas and is entirely fictional. It doesn't exist at all. We have proven that.
The USA and Israel pretty much agree with you, the rest of us are taking the other road.
meJess · F
Judge Dredd?
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@meJess Up to a point, Yes..Its about protecting those who dont break the law from those who do..😷
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@Roundandroundwego No. They dont. The creation of laws should only be about real harm of damage. Not belief. The whole concept of law and justice in those countries has been perverted. So the outcome is equally perverted..😷

 
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