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The "Civilised" approach to crime, punishment and justice is all wrong.

In the first place it goes against the Darwinian principles of human psychology that will doom it to failuire in the same way Communism is doomed to fail. It doesnt recognize the true nature of man.
The primary goal of the justice system is to apprehend and prove the guilt of a wrongdoer.. So far, so good.. But then we concern ourselves with the rights of the criminal, his or her welfare and rehabilitation and probable re entry into society. (I know we dont do any of that well. But that is the stated aim) And I have come to the conclusion that this whole approach is wrong.
First. We set way too many arbitrary rules and limits on each other. Only the following principles should apply. Is there harm, damage or cost to another party? (How thats defined can be worked out later) If not, there is no offence.. If so, that harm can be quanified.. At this level , even littering or grafitti is damage and can be quantified.
At that time, a penalty can be imposed, financial, custodial or whatever. But the difference is that once convicted, the criminal has their right to return to society suspended. Society can choose to deprive them of a vote, employment, liberty or even life, if they deem this person will be a risk of more harm to the law abiding members of society. The law should not protect the criminal. The law should be firmly behind those who are not criminals, to protect them. This turns Blackstones ration on it head.
"it is better that 100 guilty persons should escape than that one innocent person should suffer". Attributed to Benjamin Franklin. A fine ideal. But it puts society at risk from the guilty. In nature, in particular with our nearest relatives, the primates, we see those who break the laws of the group shunned, banished or killed, for the good of the tribe. No appeal. No legal technicalities. No rehabilitation. And no repeat offenders.. And pretty much everyone follows the rules that promote harmony in the group..
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The first bit is nonsense since "human nature" is not real.


And the "justice system" you described is literally how street gangs carry out discipline within their ranks. This is a territory idea.
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow There is awhole thesis in that first line. but you just condemned yourself to non reality. And I agree with the rest. The street gangs are closer aligned to Darwinian behaviour patterns. Not that I am advocating it. But everyone understands the position and few transgress.. so yes.😷
@whowasthatmaskedman Resorting to our baser impulses are a good way to destroy society, not improve it.


As for the first bit the concept of human nature has been thoroughly debunked. In fact science has basically proven communists (Marxists) correct that human behavior is conditional on our material conditions.

The idea of human nature is born out of Victorian morality, not science.
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow No. That may be the moral foundation of society as we know it. But humans saw empires rise and fall long before the Victorian model..😷
@whowasthatmaskedman I said the concept of human nature is a Victorian fiction. That has been conclusively proven. How you feel about it doesn't really matter. It doesn't change anything.
@whowasthatmaskedman You can't start by invoking behavioural science and then ignore the parts you don't like. Just saying.
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow "Human nature" is always going to be an indivial thing. But if I accept the Victorian model of the moral person as being the basis of the legal and justice framework we have, I think I could see where it fails to function properly, having cared more about the outcome for the criminal than the victim. And more recently how it has been perverted to protect the guilty. Exactly what i am trying to avoid.😷
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow I dont think we can call a model based on the bible behavioural science. Its a social system that worked better than the previous one..😷
@whowasthatmaskedman Rehabilitation is not about caring more about criminals. It is about not pretending vengeance is justice.

That is what the American system is about. vengeance with a veneer of respectability.

Rehabilitation is simply logical. Punishment and vengeance objectively do not work. It is literally doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.


Countries that actually put effort in rehabilitation have lower crime rates and lower recidivism.

The problem with the American system and countries that take the same approach is they don't actually do what they claim to do.
@whowasthatmaskedman You are the one claiming human nature which is based on the bible is real.


I am stating it is entirely made up and science has proven it. That is behavioural science which you seem to appeal to when it fits your argument and ignore it when it does not.
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow I agree on that last part. The America (and some other) systems onlt pay lip service to what they claim to support. My ideas would strip away all protection from everyone who transgressed. Even the rich and powerful and the authorities. Commit the offence do the harm. Pay the price. anyway. As the title of the group said at the start, this was always going to be an unpopular opinion and it seems to have cost me at least one friend already. So I will stop now I think.😷
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow No. The opposite. I am claiming human nature based on the bible is unrealistic.😷
@whowasthatmaskedman Human nature as a concept is based on biblical ideas and is entirely fictional. It doesn't exist at all. We have proven that.