PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
Besides that maintaining a certain amount of unhoused is absolutely economic and a feature, not a big under capitalism.
And comparing them to inmates is problematic and also a completely unrelated issue.
Recidivism is high in the US because it is literally designed that way because incarceration is a billion dollars industry.
And comparing them to inmates is problematic and also a completely unrelated issue.
Recidivism is high in the US because it is literally designed that way because incarceration is a billion dollars industry.
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PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@TinyViolins Again. You are the one making wild claims. The burden of proof to support your claims is you.
And you have said yourself the only "evidence" you have is anecdotes and opinions.
You gave excuses for why you can't back up any of your claims with anything based on facts or data.
And you are the one who pretended your anecdotes were equivalent to peer reviewed science with your climate science nonsense, not me.
Yes, the opinion of some random people you know are by definition anecdotes.
Multiple anecdotes are not data. If you are being honest about your education you know better.
And an appeal to authority fallacy also doesn't change that.
You claim to know my education and yet directly throw out all the basic methodology of your claimed education.
And "trust me bro, I am an expert" doesn't change that.
As for Finland. You said it was data from a single year. That is absolutely not indicative of anything in either direction and yes a single data point.
And you have said yourself the only "evidence" you have is anecdotes and opinions.
You gave excuses for why you can't back up any of your claims with anything based on facts or data.
And you are the one who pretended your anecdotes were equivalent to peer reviewed science with your climate science nonsense, not me.
Yes, the opinion of some random people you know are by definition anecdotes.
Multiple anecdotes are not data. If you are being honest about your education you know better.
And an appeal to authority fallacy also doesn't change that.
You claim to know my education and yet directly throw out all the basic methodology of your claimed education.
And "trust me bro, I am an expert" doesn't change that.
As for Finland. You said it was data from a single year. That is absolutely not indicative of anything in either direction and yes a single data point.
TinyViolins · 31-35, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow
You're the only one claiming that my claims are wild. What proof do you have to support your claim of mine being wild?
Prove it. I never said that. I said I didn't have much of empirical based argument and that my post is based mostly on direct eye-witness testimonies. Nowhere did I say I was using only opinions and anecdotes. Those are different concepts that don't mean what you think they mean.
I never said I couldn't back up my claims. I did provide you some with regards to crime that you chose to conveniently ignore. I said that the studies were unreliable because they're all measuring different things for different localities. It's like pieces of the puzzle. I'm not going to give you one and say it perfectly represents the whole. By looking a wide range of studies, I can piece together enough to verify that the conclusions align more or less with my observations and those with direct experience.
It's not an excuse, it's the result of having so much variety with data gathering and methodologies. I literally can't cherry pick a study and tell you this is the best one that tells you everything you need to know.
The climate change consensus was an analogy. It's a rhetorical device meant to show that you can make generalizations if multiple different studies all suggest the same thing. It was never meant to be literal, but now I bet now you're expecting me to provide you with a study demonstrating the effectiveness of using an analogy in an argument to justify me saying that.
Seriously, you need to look up the definition of the word 'anecdote'.
And these aren't just random people I know. They're people on the internet talking about their lived experiences being homeless or working directly with them in providing assistance, shelter, or working in soup kitchens. They're testimonies. You should probably look that word up too.
It doesn't take an expert to realize you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
Oh, and great job dodging my questions once again. Seems you can't back up anything when pressed to do so.
Okay, you need to look up the definition of 'data point' as well. I literally told you twice already that almost every city (I hope you're at least smart enough to realize there's more than one city in Finland) reported increases in homelessness last year. Those are multiple data points. The combined total of all those data points at the end of the year is the aggregate within that data set.
If you were to make a trend line, which I specifically said I wasn't, then the aggregate would comprise a new data point in a different data set comprising of every previous year. But again, I told you directly that I wasn't doing that. I brought last year's data up solely to dispute your completely made up claim of homelessness having been solved.
You are the one making wild claims.
You're the only one claiming that my claims are wild. What proof do you have to support your claim of mine being wild?
And you have said yourself the only "evidence" you have is anecdotes and opinions
Prove it. I never said that. I said I didn't have much of empirical based argument and that my post is based mostly on direct eye-witness testimonies. Nowhere did I say I was using only opinions and anecdotes. Those are different concepts that don't mean what you think they mean.
You gave excuses for why you can't back up any of your claims with anything based on facts or data
I never said I couldn't back up my claims. I did provide you some with regards to crime that you chose to conveniently ignore. I said that the studies were unreliable because they're all measuring different things for different localities. It's like pieces of the puzzle. I'm not going to give you one and say it perfectly represents the whole. By looking a wide range of studies, I can piece together enough to verify that the conclusions align more or less with my observations and those with direct experience.
It's not an excuse, it's the result of having so much variety with data gathering and methodologies. I literally can't cherry pick a study and tell you this is the best one that tells you everything you need to know.
And you are the one who pretended your anecdotes were equivalent to peer reviewed science with your climate science nonsense, not me.
The climate change consensus was an analogy. It's a rhetorical device meant to show that you can make generalizations if multiple different studies all suggest the same thing. It was never meant to be literal, but now I bet now you're expecting me to provide you with a study demonstrating the effectiveness of using an analogy in an argument to justify me saying that.
Yes, the opinion of some random people you know are by definition anecdotes.
Seriously, you need to look up the definition of the word 'anecdote'.
And these aren't just random people I know. They're people on the internet talking about their lived experiences being homeless or working directly with them in providing assistance, shelter, or working in soup kitchens. They're testimonies. You should probably look that word up too.
And "trust me bro, I am an expert" doesn't change that.
It doesn't take an expert to realize you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
Oh, and great job dodging my questions once again. Seems you can't back up anything when pressed to do so.
As for Finland. You said it was data from a single year. That is absolutely not indicative of anything in either direction and yes a single data point.
Okay, you need to look up the definition of 'data point' as well. I literally told you twice already that almost every city (I hope you're at least smart enough to realize there's more than one city in Finland) reported increases in homelessness last year. Those are multiple data points. The combined total of all those data points at the end of the year is the aggregate within that data set.
If you were to make a trend line, which I specifically said I wasn't, then the aggregate would comprise a new data point in a different data set comprising of every previous year. But again, I told you directly that I wasn't doing that. I brought last year's data up solely to dispute your completely made up claim of homelessness having been solved.
kodiac · 22-25, M
Having been one of those who became homeless after aging out of foster care many kids raised in foster are not equipped to function in society. For me on my 18th birthday i walked out of my final placement with absolutely nothing . For 14 years my life was controlled by an extremely broken system. Making decisions on my own was a skill didn't have. I know climate plays a big part in homelessness ,it's a whole different thing being homeless in la than it is in Pittsburgh .i found all the kinds of people mentioned in the op ,in my case i did drugs before being homeless so i can't blame addiction on that . There is a certain number of people who actually choose the street life ,they don't want anything different, also lots of people hiding from lots of things ,police families, abusers . I did find a kind of camaraderie among some homeless, people who would share what little they could scrounge or panhandle, or watch over homeless kids keeping us safe while we slept. Of course there were the completely insane who should not be roaming around free. The pimps and chicken hawks praying on homeless kids .i know my case is not even remotely close to normal and very rarely happens but i met someone that offered me a chance ,a way out of the cycle . That was 5 years ago I'm clean and sober . I don't think there is a way to solve the homeless problem.
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HiFiRaver · 18-21, M
There are certainly homeless people who can’t be helped. There are those with severe mental illness who can’t hold down a job and thus have no ability to afford housing. But I think homelessness as an issue varies depending on the locale. Here it’s not a mystery why homelessness increased significantly as housing prices went up. There were always those who were homeless because of illness or drugs. But now we’re seeing more people living in cars and RVs simply because it is too expensive to afford rent. That kind of homelessness is more addressable than trying to create a stable life for someone with severe mental illness (not that we shouldn’t try to).
Re. drugs, one factor that’s often not mentioned when discussing homelessness is that many people become addicts after becoming homeless, due to the availability of drugs on the street and the overall nihilism that being homeless brings. So we can’t always assume that an addict is homeless because of their addiction; it’s possible their addiction started only after losing their place to live.
One thing’s for sure around here: there needs to be more housing and it needs to be more affordable. New luxury apartments being built that cost $3800 a month to rent (much of the new construction I see in my city) isn’t going to help.
Re. drugs, one factor that’s often not mentioned when discussing homelessness is that many people become addicts after becoming homeless, due to the availability of drugs on the street and the overall nihilism that being homeless brings. So we can’t always assume that an addict is homeless because of their addiction; it’s possible their addiction started only after losing their place to live.
One thing’s for sure around here: there needs to be more housing and it needs to be more affordable. New luxury apartments being built that cost $3800 a month to rent (much of the new construction I see in my city) isn’t going to help.
TinyViolins · 31-35, M
@HiFiRaver Oftentimes a community offers homeless people bus tickets out of town in order to "deal" with the issue
The flipside to this is that now these homeless people are in cities where they end up feeling lost and alone and may turn to drugs or the homeless lifestyle in order to cope with their situation
The flipside to this is that now these homeless people are in cities where they end up feeling lost and alone and may turn to drugs or the homeless lifestyle in order to cope with their situation
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
On the surface of it, I have to agree with what you say, in many cases. So clearly, as the problen is intractable once it gets to that level, the answer is to intervene before those people sink that far into thesystem.
Some are Vets who have served and returned physically or mentally damaged and the VA system has failed them. Some are victims of abuse, who have turned to drugs. Some are victims of crime, poor choices or other conditions that mean they fall through the cracks.. So society needs to step jup and be there to prevent them falling through the cracks in the first place.. (Like thats ever going to happen)😷
Some are Vets who have served and returned physically or mentally damaged and the VA system has failed them. Some are victims of abuse, who have turned to drugs. Some are victims of crime, poor choices or other conditions that mean they fall through the cracks.. So society needs to step jup and be there to prevent them falling through the cracks in the first place.. (Like thats ever going to happen)😷
Justmeraeagain · 56-60, F
@badminton During Reagan's time a lot of the institutions that used to house the mentally ill where closed down and inclusion was introduced.
I'm not saying the institutions were a good thing -I'm just saying the results of closing them caused a surge in the number of homeless people.
I'm not saying the institutions were a good thing -I'm just saying the results of closing them caused a surge in the number of homeless people.
TinyViolins · 31-35, M
@badminton He practically ended mental institutions in 1981, which was not the only nail in the coffin, but probably the most detrimental. It paved the way for the problem we have now. Throw in some drug epidemics and rising rents, and you're looking at something too big to solve
friendlykinkster · 56-60, M
Homelessness is a complex issue. There are those who are homeless due to falling on hard times and have the potential to dig out.
There are those whom society has failed and suffer from mental illness and have little to no chance to better their circumstances.
There are also a huge group of people who choose homelessness as a lifestyle. Their future is up to them.
There are those whom society has failed and suffer from mental illness and have little to no chance to better their circumstances.
There are also a huge group of people who choose homelessness as a lifestyle. Their future is up to them.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
That is one massive assumption to make.
Oh and half a million in the US are combat vets and another 1.5 million are at risk of becoming homeless.
That is more than the entire US Army active duty members.
And we'll the country that broke them in the first place owe them more than platitudes.
Oh and half a million in the US are combat vets and another 1.5 million are at risk of becoming homeless.
That is more than the entire US Army active duty members.
And we'll the country that broke them in the first place owe them more than platitudes.
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Starcrossed · 41-45, F
TinyViolins · 31-35, M
@Starcrossed My girlfriend's brother is a bipolar schizophrenic fentanyl addict that refuses to take his medication because he doesn't like feeling controlled. But he'll still take as much as he can from his disabled mom because he'd rather be homeless than work for a living
Rolexeo · 26-30, M
We like to think people can just be fixed and many can be but others are hopeless for one reason or another. It doesn't matter how much education and opportunities or even money you throw at the problem. Most lottery winners blow it all after a few years and are back to square one.
robertsnj · 56-60, M
As someone that likes data and statistics as much as I do
you have any to support your premises? not accusing just asking
TinyViolins · 31-35, M
@robertsnj Data is all over the place. Some studies say that 25-30% have severe mental illness, some hover around 70%, others go as high as 85% for males
Some statistics show that 30-40% abuse alcohol with 10-15% abusing drugs, other statistics show that alcohol abuse can go as high as 50-60% with drug use being 20-30%. In California that rate has been shown to be around 70%.
Even by the most conservative estimates, more than half of the homeless population is either mentally ill or abusing substances. Rehabbing that many people is not going to be cheap or easy.
As far as the money being spent on homelessness not making an impact, it's hard to say. California can't pass an audit on homeless spending or on the effectiveness of their programs. The Seattle area has reported an increase in homelessness despite spending more money than other places in the country. The state is currently facing a budget shortfall that will see homeless spending run out of funding.
Despite how much money is being spent, I haven't seen any promising figures to point to this spending making a difference.
Some statistics show that 30-40% abuse alcohol with 10-15% abusing drugs, other statistics show that alcohol abuse can go as high as 50-60% with drug use being 20-30%. In California that rate has been shown to be around 70%.
Even by the most conservative estimates, more than half of the homeless population is either mentally ill or abusing substances. Rehabbing that many people is not going to be cheap or easy.
As far as the money being spent on homelessness not making an impact, it's hard to say. California can't pass an audit on homeless spending or on the effectiveness of their programs. The Seattle area has reported an increase in homelessness despite spending more money than other places in the country. The state is currently facing a budget shortfall that will see homeless spending run out of funding.
Despite how much money is being spent, I haven't seen any promising figures to point to this spending making a difference.
SomeMichGuy · M
TinyViolins · 31-35, M
@SomeMichGuy Yeah, he does bear some of the blame for sure, but mental institutions were being phased out for a while before he put the final nail in the coffin.
According to some posters here, there were visible homeless long before Reagan, so it's not clear exactly how much he really contributed to the problem, but it's a complex issue. He certainly didn't help, that's for sure
According to some posters here, there were visible homeless long before Reagan, so it's not clear exactly how much he really contributed to the problem, but it's a complex issue. He certainly didn't help, that's for sure
SomeMichGuy · M
@TinyViolins Those posters should look up what he did. It closed huge mental hospitals.
It might be news to persons your age, but it is not to persons my age.
It might be news to persons your age, but it is not to persons my age.
TinyViolins · 31-35, M
@SomeMichGuy I believe they all referenced it, and so did I. But I was just digging into it and it seems like deinstitutionalization was happening since the 1950s, and certain states started pushing for it in the 60s. He does deserve some blame, but it's inaccurate to place all of it on him
GeistInTheMachine · 31-35, M
Humanity is a lost cause. You are an example why.
TinyViolins · 31-35, M
@GeistInTheMachine
Humanity is a lost cause.
That is cognitive dissonance on a whole other level. You say something far more damning than I do and then try to claim the moral high ground. You say it like you're not part of humanity.