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I think the vast majority of homeless people are lost causes

Full distinction, this isn't to say that they deserve to be homeless. Some do, for sure, but for the majority there are circumstances that makes it exorbitantly difficult and costly to integrate them into general society.

As someone that likes data and statistics as much as I do, I don't really have much of an empirical argument here. This is mostly based on my own observations and on the testimony of others that have direct experience working with or adjacent to the visibly homeless, as well as those who have been homeless themselves.

For many compassionate, well-meaning, civilized people, it's easy to think that the homeless are largely comprised of those who are down on their luck or lost their homes or jobs and are unhoused purely for economic reasons. Those types undoubtedly exist, but from what I've gathered it's a relatively small segment of the larger population.

Not that I'm not particularly fond of generalizing such a large group of people, especially with regards to this topic, because it's fraught with an assortment of heart-wrenching cases of children, those aged out of foster homes, those escaping abuse, those kicked out for being gay or trans, or those who are physically unable to work due to disability. I'm not proposing to institutionalize or otherwise abandon such vulnerable people that probably just need a little help.

My main argument is based on the reality that a large majority of homeless people are either severely mentally ill or dealing with substance abuse addictions. And I don't say this to dehumanize them. In many instances there are traumatic events or abusive/neglectful childhoods that pushed these people to this life. At some point in their upbringing, these people were faced with issues they simply couldn't cope with, and it made their problems progressively worse.

Many have issues with emotional reactivity or poor impulse control or problems with authority in general because of how they were raised. They may not able to quite grasp they full extent of their actions and have more likely than not burned through many jobs and relationships on their way to the streets. It's difficult to say how many of them are victims of their own actions and how many just never really had a fair chance at life. For what it's worth I do believe there's a tragic chain of causality behind their problems, but what exactly to do about it is the more pressing matter.

In some cases, a little housing stability and job opportunities are all people really need to get going in life and find their way to greener pastures. I'm not opposed at all to solutions that help those best able to get on their feet. It's the much broader segment of the population that needs years and years of therapy just for the vague hope that all of their toxic thought patterns can be rewired and reworked into constructive ones. I just don't believe that it's really possible in the majority of cases.

We know from inmate statistics that there is an extremely high rate of recidivism among those convicted of crimes. Even after enduring years enclosed in concrete and iron with the dregs of society, around 70% end up getting re-arrested within 5 years according to DOJ statistics. If there was a 7 in 10 chance that a criminal would commit another crime upon release, no sane person would advocate for letting them out again. It's just not fair or safe for the rest of society to push this person's problems on everyone else.

That said, I do think it's important to at least think about the 30% that stay clean, like what specific factors contribute to their success and how can it best be replicated. Likewise, it's important to identify what can realistically help the long-term homeless find their way to self-sufficiency.

But the strategies that we have now in the US to address homelessness are incredibly inefficient and in some cases may be making the problems worse. For all the billions that keep being spent on homelessness, there's been very little progress made, if any. While we do want to be humane and empathetic to people who live such rough and brutish lives, we should also be realistic and at least try to figure out just how much money and resources is it going to take to get exactly where we want to go. Because so far, no matter how much money gets allocated towards homeless services, it never seems to be more than a bandaid on a gaping wound.

And perhaps the issue is that there just isn't enough money and manpower being thrown at the problem to properly address it, my personal belief is that you just can't save people who refuse to try to save themselves.
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Besides that maintaining a certain amount of unhoused is absolutely economic and a feature, not a big under capitalism.

And comparing them to inmates is problematic and also a completely unrelated issue.

Recidivism is high in the US because it is literally designed that way because incarceration is a billion dollars industry.
TinyViolins · 31-35, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow I don't think comparing them to inmates is completely unrelated though, especially when factoring in drug addiction. While they are disproportionately the victims of certain crimes and are a lot more vulnerable out on the streets, the flipside is that they also disproportionately commit crimes, particularly violent crime. There's also a significant chunk of the homeless population that are there after having previously been incarcerated.

You also have to consider the fact that people with certain mental disorders, like schizophrenia or bipolar type 1, are more likely than the general population to commit violent crimes. While they are also vulnerable and more likely to be victims themselves, we can't ignore the reality that they absolutely do commit more than their fair share of crime, especially when paired with drug use.

It is a difficult conversation because it can lead to the unfair stigmatization of the entire community, but it's foolish to write off the connection as a complete myth when we have hard data proving a link.
@TinyViolins Absolutely it is inappropriate. It only furthers the destructive stereotypes and nothing more.


And you admit in the same breath they are more likely to be the victims of crime.

And you claim they commit more crime. Citation needed for that whopper.



And again, the recidivism is by literal design. It has nothing to do with being homeless.



Umm no. The mentally ill are dis-proportionally the VICTIMS of violent crime. And you say that too. You speak out of both sides of your mouth.


All of this is Victorian "moral failings" lead to crime nonsense that has no basis in reality.


You are literally perpetrating the stigmatization and unfair stereotypes.


Again you claim your statements are backed by data and yet can provide non sources and the available data says the exact opposite.

Then again you contradict yourself so you can claim to be right no matter what the data says.
@TinyViolins And as for claims homeless people "commit more crime" well there are plenty of places where being homeless is criminalized so that is a goofy claim. The crimes most associated with homeless people beyond just existing is crimes of survival like property crime, squatting and theft,.

Whereas they are much more likely to be victims of violent crime from assault to murder.

Squatting in an abandoned building is hardly comparable to murder.
@TinyViolins Addiction is also a medical condition and what is a "drug" and what addictions are illegal are completely arbitrary so again that is mostly an excuse to perpetrate stereotypes and stigmas.
TinyViolins · 31-35, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow I think you're choosing to see only what you want to see. I explicitly stated in my original post that my argument is not empirical, and that's because statistics generalize an entire population and I don't want to generalize such a diverse population. I only wanted to focus on a specific segment of it. Most data doesn't properly disaggregate addicts and the severely mentally ill from the rest of the dataset.

But I will give you some data since you seem to be lacking yourself. 24% of homeless have a felony conviction as opposed to 8% of the general population. Felonies are typically for violent crimes.

In NYC, the homeless mentally ill are 35x more likely to commit a crime than the rest of the mentally ill. In LA, homeless are only 1% of the population, but accused in up to 8% of crime and 15% of violent crime. In San Diego, the homeless are 514x more likely to be charged with a crime than the rest of the population.

You can't just sweep this issue under the rug because you want to be empathetic. We also have to be realistic.

I already stated that they are disproportionately likely to be victims of crimes themselves, so we can both agree there. I will ask you this: who do you think are the people committing these crimes against them?