How does the creationist accept that a DNA test shows they're related to their father but reject that a DNA test shows they're related to a chimp? [Spirituality & Religion]

@Tinkles

Why couldn't a chimp like animal become a human like animal?
How would you determine the cut off point at which DNA is no longer showing relatednes?

@Tinkles
No one is saying a chimp can become a human, chimps are apes. Gorillas are apes. chimps are not Gorillias , and Gorillias are not chimps
But they both started out as apes, and changed into different species at some point. Same principle with humans. Technically we are a species of ape. But there are some small differences that make all the difference in how we ended up.

@Pikachu there are fundamental differences between humans and animals, the only way I can describe it is a higher level of thinking. This sets us apart.

For me if it were possible there would be other creatures, who think, build and create like humans on our planet. To me a more credible theory is that there were other creatures like us a we wiped them out. That I find more believable.

I wouldn't say there is a cut-off but relatedness does not prove evolution. For instance if you took 2 computers apart, they are both made for the same fundamental parts and functions but they are still different computers, and always will be.

@DocSavage Prove that similar means related!

@Tinkles First of all, you begin with a false premise. Chimps did not become humans. Humans and chimps are descended from a common ancestor. And if you don't think that selective breeding can change an animal's appearance that drastically, then I welcome you to explain the dog.

As regards your opinion regarding the thinking of humans and animals, I could show you some raven videos that would blow your mind. Those little bird brains are smarter than some humans I know.

@Tinkles


Not as much as you'd think.
The more we learn about other animals, the more we learn that they share capabilities that we once thought were uniquely human.
Parrots and Corvids are highly intelligent, innovative problem solvers and tool users. Monkeys understand the difference between fair and unfair treatment and will react in outraged ways if they feel slighted.


Two responses to this.
1) There were other human and near human hominin species living on the planet, some even contemporaneously with modern modern humans. Homo neanderthalensis, Homo erectus, Homo habilis to name but a fews.

2) We must not make the mistake of thinking that humans or human type intelligence is somehow the pinnacle of evolution or a goal that other life forms strive for.
Evolution is only concerned with what is adaptive or maladaptive in a given set of conditions.
Intelligence is one way that an organism can be successful but it is not the only way.


But this analogy falls apart when we remember that computers cannot reproduce.


Those are kind of opposing ideas.
If you agree that there's no cutoff then your acknowledging a line of common descent between organisms.

@Carazaa
As I said before. When dealing with DNA genetic markers can be similar, but only to a degree. It can identify certain features such as race, for example. But other markers are unique to related subjects.
Try reading up on "chromosome two" it was predicted by evolution, and they found it. Proof that the science works.

@Tinkles [media=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYBATyILJD8]

@DocSavage I am not interested in that since I have noticed a lot of herd mentality and jumping to conclusions when there is NO PROOF!

Well this is last time I ever comments on anything to do with religion on here, should have known better really

@Tinkles Hon, we're not attacking you. We're trying to help you see why you might be mistaken. If you were wrong, wouldn't you want to know?

@LordShadowfire I know but I can't explain what I mean and I'm not getting into a point vs point

@Tinkles I feel like you did an okay job of explaining your side. And I understand it might feel overwhelming when three or four people counter your statement with their own all at the same time.

@LordShadowfire no I didn't coz you all jumped on the chimp thing and assume intelligence is merely tools and problem solving. It's 1am and I'm not getting into this

@Carazaa
Make up your mind will you. Earlier you said you trust DNA . Where did that trust evaporate off to ? Didn’t it ever occur to you that you could be wrong about some things ?
The herd mentality your complaining about is the result of up to date education. The rest of us don’t live in the Bronze Age. Did you really think everyone here would simply take your word for something you obviously know nothing about ?
Next time you talk to Jesus, you might want to discuss vanity and false pride. And how it goth before the fall.

@Tinkles

Sorry to drive you away.
I understand that debate is not for everybody. But i'd love to keep exploring the ideas with you.
How familiar are you with the evidence of evolution? Do you reject it on the basis that there is not enough evidence or because it just seems incredible to you?

@DocSavage The trust evaporates when scientists misinterpret and jumps to conclusions that we are related to chimps because we have similar DNA. I think it is lazy science!

@Pikachu it's only debate when both sides present their cases, are listened to and both are willing to be wrong, this is not that...

I'm not familiar with it but I have a grasp of it. I reject it as the 'evidence' is circumstantial but it's treated as fact, when we know very little and ignore observations around adaptation.

Happy to discuss more via PM but not at 1am lol

@Carazaa


Well let's be honest. The trust evaporates when the science reaches conclusions that contradict your theological position.
Why can't any creationist manage to justify a cutoff when determining genetic relatedness?🤔

@Tinkles
Again no one says a chimp turned in to a human. You are aware that chimps are apes
So are gorillas, so are orangutans. But a chimp is not a gorilla or an orangutan. And a gorilla is not a chimps an orangutan and so on. But they are all still apes. And have a common ancestor. Humans are also apes. Bigger brains, finer hair, opposable thumbs. Etc. But we still share the same basic structure. And Much of the same genetic make up.
You go back far enough, we’ll all meet at the same place.

@Tinkles

lol well i think it's very rare that debaters are prepared to admit to being wrong but it's a noble goal.

I think you'll find that the body of evidence is anything but circumstantial and i'd love to hear about what observations you think are contradictory.

I'm happy to carry this on in PM at a more reasonable hour so if your interested just PM me with any questions, criticisms or whatever🙂👍

@LordShadowfire Are you kidding me 😂 you do not want to know truth you attack people who disagree with you every day!!

@Carazaa
And you know this because you’ve spent years studying Genetics, and DNA ?
I always find it amazing that the most devout Christian, will “bare false witness” at the drop of a hat. Even when everyone knows they’re full of shit. Vanity and false pride. Satan’s favorite sin.

There’s another ape that’s closely related to chimps and humans. The bonobos.

Ever since researchers sequenced the chimp genome in 2005, they have known that humans share about 99% of our DNA with chimpanzees, making them our closest living relatives. But there are actually two species of apes that are this closely related to humans: bonobos (Pan paniscus) and the common chimpanzee (Pan troglodytes). This has prompted researchers to speculate whether the ancestor of humans, chimpanzees, and bonobos looked and acted more like a bonobo, a chimpanzee, or something else—and how all three species have evolved differently since the ancestor of humans split with the common ancestor of bonobos and chimps between 4 million and 7 million years ago in Africa.

The analysis of complete genome…reveals that bonobos and chimpanzees share 99.6% of their DNA. This confirms that these two species of African apes are still highly similar to each other genetically, even though their populations split apart in Africa about 1 million years ago, perhaps after the Congo River formed and divided an ancestral population into two groups. Today, bonobos are found in only the Democratic Republic of Congo and there is no evidence that they have interbred with chimpanzees in equatorial Africa since they diverged, perhaps because the Congo River acted as a barrier to prevent the groups from mixing. The researchers also found that bonobos share about 98.7% of their DNA with humans—about the same amount that chimps share with us.

When the Max Planck scientists compared the bonobo genome directly with that of chimps and humans, however, they found that a small bit of our DNA, about 1.6%, is shared with only the bonobo, but not chimpanzees. And we share about the same amount of our DNA with only chimps, but not bonobos. These differences suggest that the ancestral population of apes that gave rise to humans, chimps, and bonobos was quite large and diverse genetically—numbering about 27,000 breeding individuals.

Once the ancestors of humans split from the ancestor of bonobos and chimps more than 4 million years ago, the common ancestor of bonobos and chimps retained this diversity until their population completely split into two groups 1 million years ago. The groups that evolved into bonobos, chimps, and humans all retained slightly different subsets of this ancestral population's diverse gene pool—and those differences now offer clues today to the size and range of diversity in that ancestral group.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2012/06/bonobos-join-chimps-closest-human-relatives

@Carazaa