I thank God for Bible based churches not biblically unqualified Archibishops.
Agree about the bill though.
Agree about the bill though.
peterlee · M
@BritishFailedAesthetic You don’t believe in the sanctity of life then?
@peterlee What?????? I said I agree with you on the bill.
peterlee · M
@BritishFailedAesthetic Sorry. A misunderstanding.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
I realise you would not want an "assisted death" yourself, but you cannot speak for everyone, especially in such a sensitive personal matter.
I suggest you look carefully at your third sentence. It does not say you disagree with those people's views*. It says you are angry that they are free to express views you oppose.
The fourth sentence is so nasty and absurd I am surprised you wrote it - it seems out of character for you.
You might fear for care home residents and "vulnerable" people, but care-home or not there are many who would welcome Nature being a bit quicker, even given an artificial nudge. What matters is that they freely want and choose the nudge for themselves.
(Vulnerable to what? A lot of people throw the phrase about, but it does not mean anything without qualification.)
......
*For others' information:
George Carey: Former Archbishop of Canterbury, quitting after a BBC investigation revealed he had advocated for an alleged child abuser to be allowed return to the priesthood.
Charles Faulkner: Former High Court judge, later a Labour peer (he could not have served in the judiciary at the same time). Often a guest interviewee on BBC radio news and current affairs programmes, he is among Britain's most experienced and wisest lawyers of the late 20 - early 21C.
Esther Wilcox (nee Rantzen, the name by which she presented the social-campaigning TV programme That's Life). Made an OBE for her charitable work, especially helping children. Personal interest in euthenasia, as member of Dignitas. She has come through lung cancer.
I suggest you look carefully at your third sentence. It does not say you disagree with those people's views*. It says you are angry that they are free to express views you oppose.
The fourth sentence is so nasty and absurd I am surprised you wrote it - it seems out of character for you.
You might fear for care home residents and "vulnerable" people, but care-home or not there are many who would welcome Nature being a bit quicker, even given an artificial nudge. What matters is that they freely want and choose the nudge for themselves.
(Vulnerable to what? A lot of people throw the phrase about, but it does not mean anything without qualification.)
......
*For others' information:
George Carey: Former Archbishop of Canterbury, quitting after a BBC investigation revealed he had advocated for an alleged child abuser to be allowed return to the priesthood.
Charles Faulkner: Former High Court judge, later a Labour peer (he could not have served in the judiciary at the same time). Often a guest interviewee on BBC radio news and current affairs programmes, he is among Britain's most experienced and wisest lawyers of the late 20 - early 21C.
Esther Wilcox (nee Rantzen, the name by which she presented the social-campaigning TV programme That's Life). Made an OBE for her charitable work, especially helping children. Personal interest in euthenasia, as member of Dignitas. She has come through lung cancer.
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MartinII · 70-79, M
@James25 My argument is perfectly serious and understandable, though at the same time slightly flippant. If someone helps another to die, and it is clear that the person concerned and any close relatives wanted that to happen, there should be no consequences for the person doing the assisting, even though his or her actions were technically illegal. As soon as you have a state-sponsored killing scheme, the objections rightly described by peterlee come into play.
SunshineGirl · 36-40, F
Making a hyperbolic link between legal euthanasia and the actions of two convicted mass murderers really does not improve the quality of the debate. This is a very important issue that affects everyone in the UK. No voices should be excluded.
I'm not sure how you have come to the conclusion that the Bill is ill thought out. I can only assume that you are an implacable opponent of any form of assisted dying.
MPs had a free vote and passed the Bill through its first reading. It is now going to become one of the most rigorously scrutinised pieces of legislation in parliamentary history.
The government certainly isn't doing this for popularity. Irrespective of my own views, I find it pretty impressive that we at last have a government serious enough to give parliamentary time to an issue of fundamental importance.
I'm not sure how you have come to the conclusion that the Bill is ill thought out. I can only assume that you are an implacable opponent of any form of assisted dying.
MPs had a free vote and passed the Bill through its first reading. It is now going to become one of the most rigorously scrutinised pieces of legislation in parliamentary history.
The government certainly isn't doing this for popularity. Irrespective of my own views, I find it pretty impressive that we at last have a government serious enough to give parliamentary time to an issue of fundamental importance.
SunshineGirl · 36-40, F
@HootyTheNightOwl Exactly. The fact that it is illegal in the UK does not stop people from seeking assisted dying. All it does is restrict the option to those wealthy enough to afford it, or lucky enough to have compassionate relatives/friends to help them.
We can improve the status quo greatly.
We can improve the status quo greatly.
@SunshineGirl Given that they can try people for assisting a British citizen to end their lives, then, it's probably better to not even let family and friends know that they are assisting them in any way.
You can't talk about matters that you have no knowledge of.
You can't talk about matters that you have no knowledge of.
Miram · 31-35, F
You need to rethink this.
While I don't participate in assisted dying or in abortion as a contraception even early on in pregnancy because of my own beliefs, I am against regulating medical practitioners based on religion or any sort of personal biases.
Every case is different.
Having government officials who aren't even trained to deal with such complex endlessly varying situations decide how medical care should be provided and to who is insanity.
They do not have the competencies nor is it even possible to form a single law that's fair to ALL cases.
We have all seen how that plays out in the US.
While I don't participate in assisted dying or in abortion as a contraception even early on in pregnancy because of my own beliefs, I am against regulating medical practitioners based on religion or any sort of personal biases.
Every case is different.
Having government officials who aren't even trained to deal with such complex endlessly varying situations decide how medical care should be provided and to who is insanity.
They do not have the competencies nor is it even possible to form a single law that's fair to ALL cases.
We have all seen how that plays out in the US.
BlueVeins · 26-30
@ArishMell The law in question is saying that patients should be allowed to get assisted deaths.
@peterlee is saying that that law is bad, and therefore that the gov't should prevent doctors from conducting assisted dying.
@Miram is saying that @peterlee is wrong for thinking the gov't should prevent doctors from conducting assisted dying. She thinks it should be between patient and doctor.
@peterlee is saying that that law is bad, and therefore that the gov't should prevent doctors from conducting assisted dying.
@Miram is saying that @peterlee is wrong for thinking the gov't should prevent doctors from conducting assisted dying. She thinks it should be between patient and doctor.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@BlueVeins In fact assisted dying is presently illegal anyway, as it would be considered as assisting suicide.
Attempting suicide was itself an offence in UK Law until, I think, some point in the 1960s. There have also been one or two cases of what in law are murder/suicide pacts between elderly couples, in which one killed the other then failed in his or her own suicide attempt. An extremely difficult and distressing situation.
I agree with Miram's point, and had also said it would be between patient and doctor not an external organisation.
Attempting suicide was itself an offence in UK Law until, I think, some point in the 1960s. There have also been one or two cases of what in law are murder/suicide pacts between elderly couples, in which one killed the other then failed in his or her own suicide attempt. An extremely difficult and distressing situation.
I agree with Miram's point, and had also said it would be between patient and doctor not an external organisation.
RodneyTrotter1 · 100+, M
My dad was completely helpless towards the end, mostly due to being left to lie in a hospital bed for days on end with no physio.
Seeing him suffer while relying on overworked hospital staff was upsetting.
He had a DNR notice above his bed yet was resuscitated TWICE so he could suffer more.
Would you allow a pet to suffer like this?
Seeing him suffer while relying on overworked hospital staff was upsetting.
He had a DNR notice above his bed yet was resuscitated TWICE so he could suffer more.
Would you allow a pet to suffer like this?
RodneyTrotter1 · 100+, M
@peterlee I'm not saying it is but in extreme cases it's surely kinder to the person who's suffering, however difficult the choice is to make.
Hospitals are overworked and underfunded due to our NHS being used to treat illegal immigrants who have never contributed to the system, the smoke screening isn't working with me.
Hospitals are overworked and underfunded due to our NHS being used to treat illegal immigrants who have never contributed to the system, the smoke screening isn't working with me.
ArtieKat · M
Great analogy, @RodneyTrotter1
Justmeraeagain · 56-60, F
I cannot comment extensively as I am not familiar with British politics.
Right after my husband died, I was vulnerable enough that if someone gave me a way out, I would have taken it.
I think the elderly often get depressed, and the depression should be treated before ending a life.
Right after my husband died, I was vulnerable enough that if someone gave me a way out, I would have taken it.
I think the elderly often get depressed, and the depression should be treated before ending a life.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@Justmeraeagain It would be never used as an escape from depression as that is treatable.
Assisted dying is intended to speed the last stages of an otherwise lingering, utterly horrible death.
Basically, in the UK system, a proposed law is discussed at considerable depth in several stages in the two parliamentary Houses, helped by deep detail examination and research in cross-Party committees. If passed its implementation is by the departments and organisations involved. It might subsequently be altered by "Case law", if a Crown Court trial or Supreme Court (formerly Law Lords) review reveals a flaw not envisaged in the law's creation.
"Assisted dying" is an extremely delicate and difficult matter anywhere, and countries considering it do look at others to learn from their experiences.
In the UK its choice would be a direct matter between patient and his or her doctor, with considerable safeguards against feared coercion from relatives.
Assisted dying is intended to speed the last stages of an otherwise lingering, utterly horrible death.
Basically, in the UK system, a proposed law is discussed at considerable depth in several stages in the two parliamentary Houses, helped by deep detail examination and research in cross-Party committees. If passed its implementation is by the departments and organisations involved. It might subsequently be altered by "Case law", if a Crown Court trial or Supreme Court (formerly Law Lords) review reveals a flaw not envisaged in the law's creation.
"Assisted dying" is an extremely delicate and difficult matter anywhere, and countries considering it do look at others to learn from their experiences.
In the UK its choice would be a direct matter between patient and his or her doctor, with considerable safeguards against feared coercion from relatives.
Justmeraeagain · 56-60, F
@ArishMell I am not for the idea, although I realize everyone has their own ideas.
I don't like assisted suicide, myself, because in the end, it is still killing the living.
I had a husband die of cancer recently, and he did not die in pain because of hospice.
I'm not up to debating the subject, really, as you can imagine, the pain from my husband's death is still fresh in my mind.
I do thank you for explaining the process and proposal to me.
I don't like assisted suicide, myself, because in the end, it is still killing the living.
I had a husband die of cancer recently, and he did not die in pain because of hospice.
I'm not up to debating the subject, really, as you can imagine, the pain from my husband's death is still fresh in my mind.
I do thank you for explaining the process and proposal to me.
peterlee · M
@ArishMell To what extent will the National Health Service be involved in this?
Streeting believes there is no money for this. So other vital NHS services will suffer.
Will all GPS have to take part in this consultation? . Are they ethically sound?
They may recommend this , as they do for late abortions for children with cleft or Downs syndrome.
Streeting believes there is no money for this. So other vital NHS services will suffer.
Will all GPS have to take part in this consultation? . Are they ethically sound?
They may recommend this , as they do for late abortions for children with cleft or Downs syndrome.
bijouxbroussard · F
Sorry, I thought Harold Shipman and Lucy Letby killed people against their wishes. Assisted suicide is not that. We have Death with Dignity laws in many states, which allow physician-assisted death. Very strictly regulated, only at the patient’s request; and only for the terminally ill (who are within a few months of death and are suffering).
Those who are against this do not have to participate.
Those who are against this do not have to participate.
peterlee · M
@bijouxbroussard Difficult culture. We in the UK are living in a culture where old people are seen as a nuisance, as they are a drain on the economy.
peterlee · M
Here are the arguments against:
Fear disabled individuals will be pressurised to choose assisted death over inadequate health care.
Diverting focus and resources from improved palliative and long term care for economic reasons.
Most health professionals see their role is to preserve life, not to end it. This causes ethical issues for doctors.
Pressure by family or society to end life for financial gain.
Insufficient safeguarding in the grey area of those who can or cannot make a free choice
And of course the sanctify of life.
Fear disabled individuals will be pressurised to choose assisted death over inadequate health care.
Diverting focus and resources from improved palliative and long term care for economic reasons.
Most health professionals see their role is to preserve life, not to end it. This causes ethical issues for doctors.
Pressure by family or society to end life for financial gain.
Insufficient safeguarding in the grey area of those who can or cannot make a free choice
And of course the sanctify of life.
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peterlee · M
@James25 I do not mention hell in any argument.
But the Bill must be seen being given time by a government that is anti older people. They are seen as expensive commodities.
No one wants to see or experience unnecessarily suffering. But Wes Streeting, the Health Secretary argues that more money should be devoted to palliative care.
But the Bill must be seen being given time by a government that is anti older people. They are seen as expensive commodities.
No one wants to see or experience unnecessarily suffering. But Wes Streeting, the Health Secretary argues that more money should be devoted to palliative care.
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peterlee · M
Prominent politicians against it include
Wes Streeting the HealthSecretary who believes more should be spent on palliative care.
Diane Abbott who believes it leaves minority groups vulnerable.
The humanist Therese Coffey who believes there are inadequate safeguards for the vulnerable.
Wes Streeting the HealthSecretary who believes more should be spent on palliative care.
Diane Abbott who believes it leaves minority groups vulnerable.
The humanist Therese Coffey who believes there are inadequate safeguards for the vulnerable.
NortiusMaximus · M
@peterlee Please show me exactly where in the Bible it says "Thou shall visit regularly people whose only job is to keep you alive for as long as possible - no matter what the cost to your dignity and sanity".
Jesus didn't go around handing people pills when he healed them... and this is nowhere near the miraculous healing he did do.
Jesus didn't go around handing people pills when he healed them... and this is nowhere near the miraculous healing he did do.
HotPizza71 · 51-55, M
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@HotPizza71 I don't agree with your second sentence's "see and be seen" premise, but I think you may be right about doctors' reluctance.
HotPizza71 · 51-55, M
bijouxbroussard · F
peterlee · M
@bijouxbroussard There are two cultural issues to consider, which are prominent in the UK at the moment.
Firstly, older people are considered a drain on the economy. And secondly the Health Service has inadequate funding for palliative care.
On a totally unrelated issues mothers are under pressure to have late abortions for children with cleft or Downs, by our National Health Service.. Again this saves money.
Firstly, older people are considered a drain on the economy. And secondly the Health Service has inadequate funding for palliative care.
On a totally unrelated issues mothers are under pressure to have late abortions for children with cleft or Downs, by our National Health Service.. Again this saves money.
peterlee · M
Let me give you a difficult one. Will this apply for a hospice for children. Will their legal guardian make the decision?
At what age will this apply?
At what age will this apply?
peterlee · M
@bijouxbroussard my belief is that more resources should be devoted for palliative care for everyone.
peterlee · M
@NortiusMaximus The funding of children’s hospices is lamentable.
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CoolUsername · 26-30, F
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