So, I know some people who preach about how important it is to pay your taxes

@CrazyMusicLover and if you wouldn't pay any taxes the money would still end up flowing to rich corrupt swines in the form of managers and Ceos of big companies.

@Gloomy If the government is corrupt and asks for high taxes that won't end up in services you need as a citizen, your only option will be to use private institutions and businesses anyway. So you'll pay them both. The difference is that you'll pay the government regardless if you need the services or not and only pay the CEOs if you need them. No private business can force you to pay.

@CrazyMusicLover Depends on the service; if you need medical care, or even just meds, at the end of the day you're forced to pay that CEO. The alternative is dying. And in a private-only system where rest assured corporates won't keep the prices you have in a public+private hybrid system - look at the US: people getting loans or pouring a lifetime of savings for covering medical expenses, or paying insulin $700 a month.

You've pretty much summarized Italy. However, even here, what would be the purpose of saving those €300/mo in taxes (with an avg salary) if as soon as you hit your 50s or 60s you're likely to give it all to a private clinic, and also have to get a loan/mortgage (and pray that the bank is willingly to concede it to you) to cover the difference?

@Elessar Anything you need you will have to pay for one way or another. But with taxes you pay regardless. That was my point.

@CrazyMusicLover It's not wrong, but with a private only system you get very different bills, that's to take into account too.

The solution to corruption isn't giving up all services to privates, I think; rather, that's exactly what corrupt politicians (/their donors) get elected to achieve.

@CrazyMusicLover no private business can force you to pay, unless they own a virtual monopoly on what you need. Healthcare in the US is a great example of private industry being as bad as a corrupt government. Look up United Healthcare's increase in insurance claim denials paired with their "vertical integration" acquisitions of pharmacies, care providers, and loan centers.

@ViciDraco It's still not forced under a threat of fine if you won't pay simply for the reason that you were born in some state and therefore you're the citizen of that state obliged to pay. For no other reason, for no personal need.
Of course there can arise some situation where you're exploited by private businesses but if something like that is created the system is equally dysfunctional as the system of the corrupt state-governed market.
You can layer it until the ultimate dystopia.

@CrazyMusicLover Yes you don't only pay for things you might need but also things that might benefit other people or society as a whole

@Gloomy If the money actually gets where it's supposed to get.

@CrazyMusicLover True but when funding the private sector I can gurantee you it won't ever end up where it is needed

@ViciDraco
Isn't that the precise definition of corruption?

@CrazyMusicLover It is. But you seem to be focusing on blaming taxes and government rather than the wealthy private sector that controls everything.

@ViciDraco No, I'm simply stating that the government doesn't give you a choice to not pay if you're the citizen of the state they govern. You can get into a debt just simply for the existing. They control you through the law and have means to fine you or even imprison you if you disobey. In a real capitalist society, you should have the free choice to choose which company you want to pay for their services and they can't force you to choose them and pay them. If they are corrupt, greedy, etc., you can simply choose to not support them and pick another alternative, boycott them, move into another country, etc. if the government is corrupt, you have no alternative then to move to another country (if they allow you to do so).

@CrazyMusicLover You seem to fundamentally misunderstand the usage of taxes.
Do you think individuals should pay to have infrastructure build or renovated?
What about social services do you think womens shelters, etc should have to work for profit or be at the mercy of donations?
...
Also in a so called "real" capitalist society what would prevent monopolization?

@CrazyMusicLover Well but if you're choices is either 1) pay $200k to this company that has enough patents to secure themselves as the only provider of the medication/treatment you need or 2) simply die - at the end of the day the pure capitalist society is de-facto coercing you too.

It's just a different form of coercion, but with the very same effect: you either get in debt or you're f*cked

@Gloomy I've no idea how a hypothetical pure capitalist society would handle things like road maintenance; unless they split them in one million segments each owned by a different owner (lol) a bare minimum amount of taxes would be required there too

@Gloomy I understand very well how taxes are supposed to work and I can see how that's not always the case.

Sometimes it would be far more effective if individuals paid for building the infrastructure. There have been cases when people actually wanted to take it into their hands because they were damaging their cars on crappy roads but the municipality didn't allow it because the roads were owned by the state and the state couldn't find the "right" private company that would get it done. Instead of immediate action when the individual chooses the company to get it done, you have to go through the process of public procurement that takes ages and loads of bureaucracy where in the end the company isn't chosen by the quality of their work but very likely by low price and nepotism. By ages I mean it can literally drag for years before something is done.

I don't know where you live but you sound like someone from somewhere where these things actually work and get solved relatively fast. But if you have actual individuals offering themselves to fix things that should be fixed by the state on their own expenses, you know something is really wrong.

@CrazyMusicLover Oh no the struggle is real here in Romania but I wouldn't ever dream of advocating for an anarcho capitalist society.
You might think this would fix things but private corporations would immediately exploit that situation, then there is the question of ownership claims of those who finance public infrastructure they might want to turn it into capital instead of free public property, ...

@Gloomy I heard Romania is even worse in this but I don't know. The fact is that something is broken when stuff that is supposed to be funded by taxes gets paid out of the pocket of individuals anyway. You pay twice. You pay taxes and then to private businesses to get done what was supposed to be done from your taxes. Either taxes are low or the money just gets lost somewhere on the way...
I agree that healthcare should never be privatized completely though.
And there has to be some control and regulation over private companies from the position of the state that would prevent them from privatization of the protected land, creating monopoly and pushing prices too high.

@CrazyMusicLover That should be addressed by fixing the public service, making pressure in politics, protesting if necessary; not by doing a favour to the very individuals and corporations that bribed their way in so that the public service would suck on purpose. The main difficulty with that is that the average person doesn't bother engaging with anything of that, and will go the easier route of just paying the private business (maybe even in black / without invoice, to cut the costs down a little bit :wink: :wink:) and.. here we are.

Healthcare isn't the only thing that turns into a shìtshow when there isn't a public alternative unfortunately, just the most notorious one. Education is another, and another one is media / the press. Maybe even energy, in hindsight, wasn't really smart to privatize.