Do you know the lefts solution to crime toward merchants in San Francisco?
Force the stores to close early. Do you agree with this?
26-30, M
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Ynotisay · M
Out of curiosity, who is the "left?' And where did you hear this? Finally, have you ever been to San Francisco? I'm not sure you have. The City is the whipping boy for certain types of people.
I got curious and looked in to it. Which you should have done. Here's the reality.
They're CONSIDERING legislation to close certain smoke shops and liquor stores in a very small area of the Tenderloin from midnight until 5 am. And since I'll assume you've never been to the Tenderloin I'll tell you that it makes perfect sense.
Sorry to get in the way of your war against "the left." I know how the fuels some. It's just a drag that reality isn't part of the war.
I got curious and looked in to it. Which you should have done. Here's the reality.
They're CONSIDERING legislation to close certain smoke shops and liquor stores in a very small area of the Tenderloin from midnight until 5 am. And since I'll assume you've never been to the Tenderloin I'll tell you that it makes perfect sense.
Sorry to get in the way of your war against "the left." I know how the fuels some. It's just a drag that reality isn't part of the war.
Diotrephes · 70-79, M
How about renovating stores so that the customer goes to a computer and selects all of the items that is to be purchased and then pays for them. In the background, robots get the items and bags them and puts them into the delivery slot where the customer picks them up. Some fast food restaurants already work that way. That should eliminate the shoplifting problem.
Or how about giving everyone a badge that they have to use when entering a store. The person can then take whatever he wants but he has to use the adge to exit the store. If the person doesn't pay for the items then he has to do slave labor for a set amount of time to cover the expense of the items that he took. No appeal, no court case.
Or how about giving everyone a badge that they have to use when entering a store. The person can then take whatever he wants but he has to use the adge to exit the store. If the person doesn't pay for the items then he has to do slave labor for a set amount of time to cover the expense of the items that he took. No appeal, no court case.
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ninalanyon · 61-69, T
@ArishMell [quote]Argos has since closed its shops and stopped printing catalogues but still works by on-line ordering and direct delivery or by collection from partner-supermarkets. [/quote]
You can still go to an Argos store and pick something from the catalogue on a touch screen. Or has that changed in the last year? The stores are in Sainsbury's.
[quote] luxury goods retailer Argos,[/quote]
That's the first time I have seen [i]luxury[/i] and [i]Argos [/i]in the same sentence!
You can still go to an Argos store and pick something from the catalogue on a touch screen. Or has that changed in the last year? The stores are in Sainsbury's.
[quote] luxury goods retailer Argos,[/quote]
That's the first time I have seen [i]luxury[/i] and [i]Argos [/i]in the same sentence!
ArishMell · 70-79, M
As I don't know the details I can't judge if there is more to this than the question and by-line suggest; but quite how early closing might limit such offences is hard to see!
Retailers in the UK are reporting a big rise in so-called "shop-lifting" (let's be blunt and honest: open [b]theft[/b]), not just odd individuals trying to smuggle out a bottle of wine though that is still [b]stealing[/b]; but gangs openly marching in and filling large rucksacs etc with goods.
Many, though not all, of these thieves are junkies stealing to feed the results of their own stupidity and cowardice, by hawking the stolen goods, but irrespective of motive the shopkeepers say the Law is just not doing enough to protect them.
I know this is blaming the victims, which is always morally questionable, but maybe it's time for shops to reconsider the years of open displays, in favour of behind-counter or other distancing practices; certainly for alcohol, but even for food.
(Tobacco products and nicotine substitutes are already sold that way, and have been for quite a number of years now. Costly items like small electronics goods are often sold using empty-box or dummy-item displays.)
Retailers in the UK are reporting a big rise in so-called "shop-lifting" (let's be blunt and honest: open [b]theft[/b]), not just odd individuals trying to smuggle out a bottle of wine though that is still [b]stealing[/b]; but gangs openly marching in and filling large rucksacs etc with goods.
Many, though not all, of these thieves are junkies stealing to feed the results of their own stupidity and cowardice, by hawking the stolen goods, but irrespective of motive the shopkeepers say the Law is just not doing enough to protect them.
I know this is blaming the victims, which is always morally questionable, but maybe it's time for shops to reconsider the years of open displays, in favour of behind-counter or other distancing practices; certainly for alcohol, but even for food.
(Tobacco products and nicotine substitutes are already sold that way, and have been for quite a number of years now. Costly items like small electronics goods are often sold using empty-box or dummy-item displays.)
ninalanyon · 61-69, T
@ArishMell Such shops are in small communities or out of the way places. But I expect some theft does occur. It's a balancing act. You could prevent the theft by employing someone to mind the shop. But for a little farm shop just selling the local produce (apples, apple juice, cabbages, ice cream made by the farmer's wife, etc.) it would wipe out the profit. Just the wage bill for a shop open 24 hours a day with one employee present would be over 360 pounds a day even for the most poorly paid person because unemployment is low here. And you would have to employ four people because you aren't allowed to work more than forty four hours a week on a permanent basis.
Even the little supermarket that I mentioned almost certainly can't afford to keep staff on site all night.
Shop lifting is definitely a problem in Norway in bigger shops. No 2 son used to work in one and said that it was pretty much a daily occurrence that it would be discovered that stock had gone missing.
Even the little supermarket that I mentioned almost certainly can't afford to keep staff on site all night.
Shop lifting is definitely a problem in Norway in bigger shops. No 2 son used to work in one and said that it was pretty much a daily occurrence that it would be discovered that stock had gone missing.
CestManan · 46-50, F
@ArishMell [quote] the shopkeepers say the Law is just not doing enough to protect them.
[/quote] There is only so much the law can even do. There's only so much jail space and so many courts and legal resources.
It is like any other problem. Isolated incidents are one thing but when an area is overrun by crooks, what can really be done?
I am not excusing the thieves, just saying in some places they far out number the "good guys"
[/quote] There is only so much the law can even do. There's only so much jail space and so many courts and legal resources.
It is like any other problem. Isolated incidents are one thing but when an area is overrun by crooks, what can really be done?
I am not excusing the thieves, just saying in some places they far out number the "good guys"
Captainjackass · 31-35, M
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therighttothink50 · 56-60, M
Just when you thought you heard it all…San Francisco lawmakers looking to push bill that allows city residents to to sue grocery stores…story below..
San Francisco lawmakers want to let city residents sue grocery stores that close
https://nypost.com/2024/04/08/business/san-francisco-lawmakers-want-to-let-city-residents-sue-grocery-stores/
Excerpt below from full article above.
[A pair of progressive San Francisco lawmakers are pushing a bill that would allow residents in the crime-ravaged city to sue grocery stores that close up shop if they don’t give six months’ notice.
The proposal by San Francisco Board of Supervisors members Dean Preston and Aaron Peskin would require business to either find a successor grocer or work out a plan with residents in the neighborhood to ensure the availability of supermarket options.]
San Francisco lawmakers want to let city residents sue grocery stores that close
https://nypost.com/2024/04/08/business/san-francisco-lawmakers-want-to-let-city-residents-sue-grocery-stores/
Excerpt below from full article above.
[A pair of progressive San Francisco lawmakers are pushing a bill that would allow residents in the crime-ravaged city to sue grocery stores that close up shop if they don’t give six months’ notice.
The proposal by San Francisco Board of Supervisors members Dean Preston and Aaron Peskin would require business to either find a successor grocer or work out a plan with residents in the neighborhood to ensure the availability of supermarket options.]
Patriot96 · 56-60, C
@therighttothink50 people are actually leaving their cars unlocked and open so theives dont break the windows.
Saw that Adam Schitz car was broken into and his luggage stolen🤣🤣🤣🤣
Saw that Adam Schitz car was broken into and his luggage stolen🤣🤣🤣🤣
therighttothink50 · 56-60, M
@Patriot96
Leave car keys ‘at front door’ to avoid violent confrontations with car thieves: Toronto Police
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2024/03/14/leave-car-keys-at-front-door-to-avoid-violent-confrontations-with-car-thieves-toronto-police/
[Toronto Police are being heavily criticized online for what many consider a shoulder-shrugging approach to the rash of car thefts that continue to plague the Greater Toronto Area.
At an Etobicoke safety meeting last month, Cst. Marco Ricciardi advised residents to leave their key fobs in a faraday pouch in a convenient place for thieves as a way to lessen the risk of violent confrontations.
“To prevent the possibility of being attacked in your home, leave your fobs at the front door because they are breaking into your home to steal your car; they don’t want anything else.]
Leave car keys ‘at front door’ to avoid violent confrontations with car thieves: Toronto Police
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2024/03/14/leave-car-keys-at-front-door-to-avoid-violent-confrontations-with-car-thieves-toronto-police/
[Toronto Police are being heavily criticized online for what many consider a shoulder-shrugging approach to the rash of car thefts that continue to plague the Greater Toronto Area.
At an Etobicoke safety meeting last month, Cst. Marco Ricciardi advised residents to leave their key fobs in a faraday pouch in a convenient place for thieves as a way to lessen the risk of violent confrontations.
“To prevent the possibility of being attacked in your home, leave your fobs at the front door because they are breaking into your home to steal your car; they don’t want anything else.]
SW-User
Shortening store hours is a viable solution for a shortage of police presence, and this is decided at a municipal level completely unrelated to 'leftist politics'. If you mom served cherry pie instead of apple would you accuse her too?
akindheart · 61-69, F
Can you freaking believe what they are doing? they won't prosecute unless the theft is over 900.00 so the homeless steal a little every day and then sell it on the streets. craziness and yet they vote for Newsom.
Diotrephes · 70-79, M
@akindheart [quote]Can you freaking believe what they are doing? they won't prosecute unless the theft is over 900.00 so the homeless steal a little every day and then sell it on the streets. craziness and yet they vote for Newsom. [/quote]
Are you sure about that?
[b]§ 459.5 PC – California “Shoplifting” Laws & Penalties[/b]
https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/penal-code/459-5/
[b]Illegal to stop retail theft in California? No, bill never proposed this | Fact check[/b]
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/09/12/false-claim-california-bill-would-outlaw-stopping-shoplifters-fact-check/70807687007/
Are you sure about that?
[b]§ 459.5 PC – California “Shoplifting” Laws & Penalties[/b]
https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/penal-code/459-5/
[b]Illegal to stop retail theft in California? No, bill never proposed this | Fact check[/b]
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/09/12/false-claim-california-bill-would-outlaw-stopping-shoplifters-fact-check/70807687007/
akindheart · 61-69, F
@Diotrephes you know. you might be right. you can't believe fake news can you?
Diotrephes · 70-79, M
@akindheart [quote]you know. you might be right. you can't believe fake news can you?[/quote]
It's difficult to keep up with California laws because they come up with weird ones everyday.
"[b]SHOPLIFTING LAWS – CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE 459.5 PC[/b]
REVIEW OF PC 459.5 SHOPLIFTING LAWS AND DEFENSES
California Penal Code 459.5 describes the crime of shoplifting as entering an open business during their normal hours with intent to steal merchandise valued at $950 or less.
PC 459.5 shoplifting is always a misdemeanor crime and punishable by up to six months in a county jail and fine up to $1,000, unless the defendant has one of more prior convictions.
WHAT ARE SOME DEFENSES TO SHOPLIFTING?
The crime of shoplifting requires a specific criminal intent to steal the items from a store prior to entry.
Criminal Defense for California Shoplifting Cases
Thus, perhaps we can make an argument you developed the intent to steal after you entered the business.
While this defense still can result in a conviction for petty theft, it may help avoid a conviction of shoplifting in certain cases.
If an individual forgot to pay for an item or was planning to pay for an item they were carrying in a bag or pocket while inside the store, then a mistake defense can be raised.
Prosecutors will look to every fact and circumstance in a shoplifting case to prove an individual's criminal intent as it is often the key element that needs to be proven in a shoplifting case."
https://www.egattorneys.com/shoplifting-penal-code-459-5
[b]Why Shoplifting Is Now De Facto Legal In California[/b]
"We probably shouldn’t call it shoplifting anymore, since that term connotes the idea of a person trying to conceal their crime. In San Francisco, there is no attempt to conceal theft, and there is almost never any effort by store employees, including security personnel, to confront the thieves. The most they do is record the thefts with their cell phones.
[b][c=BF0000]Why is shoplifting so rampant? Because state law holds that stealing merchandise worth $950 or less is just a misdemeanor, which means that law enforcement probably won’t bother to investigate, and if they do, prosecutors will let it go.[/c][/b]"
https://www.hoover.org/research/why-shoplifting-now-de-facto-legal-california
[b][c=BF0000]It's only a crime if you are arrested and convicted. [/c][/b]
It's difficult to keep up with California laws because they come up with weird ones everyday.
"[b]SHOPLIFTING LAWS – CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE 459.5 PC[/b]
REVIEW OF PC 459.5 SHOPLIFTING LAWS AND DEFENSES
California Penal Code 459.5 describes the crime of shoplifting as entering an open business during their normal hours with intent to steal merchandise valued at $950 or less.
PC 459.5 shoplifting is always a misdemeanor crime and punishable by up to six months in a county jail and fine up to $1,000, unless the defendant has one of more prior convictions.
WHAT ARE SOME DEFENSES TO SHOPLIFTING?
The crime of shoplifting requires a specific criminal intent to steal the items from a store prior to entry.
Criminal Defense for California Shoplifting Cases
Thus, perhaps we can make an argument you developed the intent to steal after you entered the business.
While this defense still can result in a conviction for petty theft, it may help avoid a conviction of shoplifting in certain cases.
If an individual forgot to pay for an item or was planning to pay for an item they were carrying in a bag or pocket while inside the store, then a mistake defense can be raised.
Prosecutors will look to every fact and circumstance in a shoplifting case to prove an individual's criminal intent as it is often the key element that needs to be proven in a shoplifting case."
https://www.egattorneys.com/shoplifting-penal-code-459-5
[b]Why Shoplifting Is Now De Facto Legal In California[/b]
"We probably shouldn’t call it shoplifting anymore, since that term connotes the idea of a person trying to conceal their crime. In San Francisco, there is no attempt to conceal theft, and there is almost never any effort by store employees, including security personnel, to confront the thieves. The most they do is record the thefts with their cell phones.
[b][c=BF0000]Why is shoplifting so rampant? Because state law holds that stealing merchandise worth $950 or less is just a misdemeanor, which means that law enforcement probably won’t bother to investigate, and if they do, prosecutors will let it go.[/c][/b]"
https://www.hoover.org/research/why-shoplifting-now-de-facto-legal-california
[b][c=BF0000]It's only a crime if you are arrested and convicted. [/c][/b]
blackarcher256 · 61-69, M
No. The situation is about to get even worse. California is pushing a ballot initiative to reclassify all theft under $950 to petty theft, and make it a misdemeanor.
pdockal · 56-60, M
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eMortal · M
I think SF merchant should form a coalition and protest in Capitol/Sacramento for few weeks. It’s getting out of hand. They keep voting laws that attract all homeless people and petty criminals in the country!
BohemianBoo · M
Diotrephes · 70-79, M
@WizardofOz Here's an interesting case of a shoplifter in San Francisco =
[b]Target thief used self-checkout to steal over $60K in items over 120 visits to same store[/b]
May 10, 2024
https://nypost.com/2024/05/10/us-news/target-thief-aziza-graves-used-self-checkout-to-steal-over-60k-in-items/
[b]Target thief used self-checkout to steal over $60K in items over 120 visits to same store[/b]
May 10, 2024
https://nypost.com/2024/05/10/us-news/target-thief-aziza-graves-used-self-checkout-to-steal-over-60k-in-items/
ArishMell · 70-79, M
What is the relevance of political leaning? Crime does not respect political beliefs.
Is it just that the proposals, whatever they really are, happen to be put forward by a left-wing party?
Is it just that the proposals, whatever they really are, happen to be put forward by a left-wing party?
2ndtimeguy · 61-69, M
When it becomes unsafe for employees to work in a store closing early makes sense but you will need less employes and if that doesnt work you close the store
Carissimi · F
The real goal is to close the stores permanently, then open government run stores.
Carissimi · F
@WizardofOz It’s all about power and control. The opposite of our Constitution.
pdockal · 56-60, M
It's pitiful
Guess criminals only work @ night ?
If it continues stores will close permanently
Guess criminals only work @ night ?
If it continues stores will close permanently
Ask Adam Schiff…he recent had a visit from the criminal element. I wonder what his feelings are.
Nevertooold · 56-60, M
We're starting to cater to thieves....Let's all just keep our alarms and security turned off for them as well!!!
Diotrephes · 70-79, M
@WizardofOz[quote]Force the stores to close early. Do you agree with this?[/quote]
Yep, the stores should only be open from 9AM to 9:15AM one day a month. Crime would go to zero.
Yep, the stores should only be open from 9AM to 9:15AM one day a month. Crime would go to zero.
Nitedoc · 51-55, M
That's ridiculous! It's a shame they would even consider something like that.
meJess · F
Is there anyone receiving a pay check still living in San Francisco?
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WizardofOz · 26-30, M
@jshm2 like NYC did? Or at least in the subways but there isn't a crime wave. Lol
WizardofOz · 26-30, M
@jshm2 Why would your comment be hidden?
WillaKissing · 56-60
No! Of course, I agree with none of that type of thinking either.
Allelse · 36-40, M
See it should be bazookas for everybody!
Patriot96 · 56-60, C
Close it now
Yup to run them out of bussinesx to make room for the demoillegals !
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TrashCat · M
@MarmeeMarch Go. You'll never forget it 😂😂😂😂
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TrashCat · M
@MarmeeMarch It's run down, poor, and crime infested. It feels like hell