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Is the western world moving in a far-right direction?

I think that it is, slowly away. In my time, I've seen radical parties and radical ideas normalised along with conspiracy theories. Large minorities of people support these ideas and it's become normalised for people (and politicians) in the middle. The Overton window always changes and it's clear which way it is going.

This is about Trump, but it's not just about him because Europe has had a resurgence of 'nationalist' parties who are losing their taboo and becoming slowly more influential. The British Conservative Party is not far-right and is not as radical as - say - the US Republicans or the German AFD. However, they've recently instituted measures that effectively criminalise asylum seekers. The Tories want to send them to Rwanda to be processed. They also passed a public order bill which means you can get locked up for 'disruption.' Most protest causes some kind of disruption and that is half of the point. Here, UKIP and the Brexit Party acted as outliers to push the Tories in a more nativist direction. Obviously, they still have the same neoliberal policies that benefit the rich. Blame someone else and people will vote for you nonetheless.

In continental Europe (where most countries have proportional representation voting) radical right parties have emerged and become more popular. In some cases, they have served in Government either on a local or regional level. In Italy, Hungary and Poland, they have led governments. Trump has taken over the US Republican Party to the point where other candidates are terrified to say they won't support him if he goes to jail for insighting an insurrection. Hungary is the place where the far right has had the most success. If you have time, this is an excellent article:

https://www.sciencespo.fr/ceri/en/content/politics-worst-practices-hungary-2010s

Why is this happening? My take on this is because Western economies are now in a period of long-term low (or zero) growth. The neoliberal era (from the 80s to the 00s) saw rapid growth over a long period of time. However, much of this was created debt accumulation and the financialization of our economies, which also entrenched greater instability. It also disproportionately effected some groups more than others. This came to a head with the 2007/08 financial crash. That incident really was a bookmark in modern political history and it didn't come about [i]just [/i]because of greedy bankers but because the growth models of our economies were unsustainable. After the recession, we had some periods of slow growth before Covid. Since the Covid crash, whatever growth we have had has been eaten by inflation. The days of long-term economic growth are probably gone for good in the west and people can feel it. A big part of this is indeed down to globalisation.

When the economics change, so does the politics, even if there is usually a lag. More people are open to question whether the conventional politics of the last fifty years represent them amd are more open to alternatives. The left has had its own alternative candidates and answers: Corbyn, Sanders, Syriza and others. Outside France (where Jean-Luc Melenchon is a major figure) this has mostly been defeated. So politics in most places has the liberal centre holding onto the status quo against an increasingly radicalised right wing. In many cases, these centrists have taken on more right-wing politics to try and get elected. I'm thinking of Macron and Keir Starmer in particular. Change can happen from within as well as without. The change that gets the most support (regardless of whether their solutions will improve people's lives) is coming from the right. I hope I am wrong but this process is set to continue.
helenS · 36-40, F
About 20% of the population of EVERY country [u]adore[/u] serfdom and an authoritarian government. There's not much you can do about [u]that[/u]. Every republic has to live with it.
Big problems arise only when the authoritarians are able to form a coalition with "conservative" parties, or hijack a conservative party.
MartinII · 70-79, M
@helenS Surely authoritarianism is to be found more on the left than on the right nowadays.
helenS · 36-40, F
@MartinII The authoritarian personality is independent of that person's left or right-wing leanings [English?]
MartinII · 70-79, M
@helenS That’s a very interesting question. I think you are probably right, and the other side of that coin is that authoritarianism is to be found at both ends of the political spectrum, to different extents at different times.

When I studied the subject in the early 1970s, authoritarian personality traits were routinely associated with right-wing politics. That seemed fair enough at the time, when memories of Nazism and fascism were still relatively fresh, and some small neo-fascist parties were active. Also, centre-right parties were generally more authoritarian in their politics than centre-left ones. For example, you were much more likely to find supporters of capital punishment in the British Conservative Party than in the Labour Party. At the same time there was increasing acknowledgment that Soviet Communism also exhibited authoritarian characteristics.

Now, in the UK, we have a very different situation. The dominant left-wing ideology puports to be liberal, and yet is intolerant of opposition. These self-styled liberals preach “diversity” and “inclusion”, talk the language of “rights”, challenge conventional ideas about sexual orientation and family organisation, deplore what they see as authoritarian behaviour in our histoory. And yet they argue that everyone should follow their beliefs and that anyone who fails to do so should be “cancelled” - surely an authoritarian trait. Admittedly this form of authoritarianism is relatively benign compared with some historical precedents - non-believers are to be ostracised, not sent to concentration camps. But at the same time there are much stronger libertarian tendencies on the right than on the left. And there are even some signs of authoritarian thinking in the mainstream centre: adherents of orthodox policy on climate change and the authoritarian response to covid have argued, apparently in all seriousness, that dissenters should be silenced, and those dissenters tend to be on the right. That is why I assert that, at the moment, authoritarianism is to be found more on the left than on the right. Who knows what the psychological explanation for this is.
I fear you are right, but we can hope for a backlash once the emptiness of these people becomes clear. Trump, Brexit, all populist nonsense relying on poor levels of education to reach power.
@ArtieKat Good for you. Enjoy the slow decline of the UK. I’m outta there.
ArtieKat · M
@Adeptlinguist I'm not surprised you're divorced - it must have been hell for your ex-wife being married to such self-righteous [expletive deleted].
@ArtieKat At least my ex-wife wasn’t a Brexiter. She isn’t stupid.
MartinII · 70-79, M
Well you are wrong. The left has taken over our institutions and imposed repressive policies which most organisational leaders, including bizarrely commercial ones, fall over themselves to kowtow to. To take two obvious examples, try standing on a soapbox and asserting that people with penises are by definition male, or that the British Empire did good things as well as bad! Insofar as there is any growth in support for right-wing or populist (ie a mixture of right and left wing) parties, which there is to a limited extent in a small number of European countries, it is surely a reaction to the way in which mainstream parties have succumbed to some aspects of extreme left dogma.
MartinII · 70-79, M
@MartinII No, I want to know what you think, and what the sources you offer are about. As to evidence, there is nothing remotely controversial about what I posted. It’s a commonplace. (To be clear, it relates to the UK. I can’t speak with much authority about other countries.) The only controversy is about whether one welcomes the situation I describe or not.
MartinII · 70-79, M
@RockerDad My comments relate to the UK. S to the US, myimpression is that Biden is himself centre left, but likes to keep himself in with the more extreme left. However that’s only an impression. On economic policy, there are certainly similarities between Biden and Trump, but surely Biden is more keen on spending taxpayers’ money?
RockerDad · M
@MartinII Biden is unfortunately trying to please the entire spectrum of the left, and even some of the center right. He has a razor thin majority in congress, so it’s hard for him to get much done without the support of his whole party, which he doesn’t always get. I don’t envy the position he is in.
beckyromero · 36-40, F
As for the U.S., I think we are not so much moving towards a far-right direction as a more autocractic direction.

There are many ideas that the far left has come up with that are also an antithesis to freedom. Some seemingly insignificant, others much more serious. Whether it be how many times you can fly on an airplane in a year, whether you can get a free refill of pop at the restaurant or if the restaurant can give away a toy with certain meals purchased for childen, proposed city traffic tolls at certain hours (congestion tolling), etc.

But as far as Trump, the MAGA movement is a shrinking minority. But a very vocal shrinking minority. They are like a rabid animal that is cornered. So one needs to be careful in dealing with it and not let it escape or bite you.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@beckyromero I'm not a fan of either tbh.

Calling me Neville annoyed me because Chamberlain was a Tory. So was Churchill but hey.
beckyromero · 36-40, F
@Burnley123

Well, Stanley Baldwin is the one who left Chamberlain holding the bag as far as Britain's unpreparedness for war.

But he somehow escapes the appeasement tag, at least in modern accounts.

Chamberlain knew war was coming and was trying to bide time. His problem was that the more time he "bought" with appeasement allowed Germany to get even stronger. Supporting going to war to protect Czechoslovakia in 1938 might have led to Hitler's downfall and a Germany defeat since it would have bogged down many Germany divisions in Czechoslovakia, denied the Germans the Škoda Works intact and pushed the execution of Fall Weiß) well past September 1939.

One of these days I will get around to reading "Guilty Men."
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@beckyromero Or read Wages of Destruction by Adam Tooze, which is about the economy of the Third Reich. Nobody was prepared for war in 1938, but Germany especially and they needed that year, I'm not disputing the history of that, just its relevance to ALL other wars.
Entwistle · 56-60, M
Sadly yes it seems to be.
Those who control the media control people's opinions..in the main.
Ontheroad · M
For me, it's obvious that the minority (let's say 30% of the population) are afraid of anything not them/ not about them, and that fear has resulted in what we see today.

While that minority has always been there (and will always be there), it's the rest of us who have allowed them to gather their forces and spread hate (hate in all its many forms).

We've, after many years of being/living in a more progressive, open society, become complacent.

We've not paid attention to this minority and allowed them to gather strength.

Now we are paying the price for our complacency.
SW-User
What "ideas" do you identify as belonging to or being an integral part of the far-right?

For example, if someone says "I don't support illegal migration", that literally is all they are saying and I don't see how it can logically be categorized as far-right. You may question what their reasons are, but would you really say that every answer or the most prevailing answer is racism? Would you not recognize that there are other more acceptable reasons for not supporting it?

Also, the "right-wing" government in the UK are, most of the time, barely right-wing. As opposed to being interested in limiting state power, they have sought to expand it in some areas. They don't promote or encourage individual liberty, and don't change any laws that would be to the benefit of people (not the state). Fiscal policies and possibly immigration aside, what do they actually do that is conservative?
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@SW-User[quote]What "ideas" do you identify as belonging to or being an integral part of the far-right?[/quote]

I did give examples in the second and third paragraphs for definitions of far right. I had a link to a long-read argument about a far-right government. Did you read past the headline?

[quote]Fiscal policies and possibly immigration aside, what do they actually do that is conservative?[/quote]

Though are less radical than the US Republicans (as I said in the OP) the Tories are definitely a Conservative Party. Since Thatcher, they have championed deregulation, privatisation of UK industries, Union busting, and having low income and corporate tax. I could go on. This is not controversial.

[quote]As opposed to being interested in limiting state power, they have sought to expand it in some areas. [/quote]

I don't agree with this framing. The far-right is very much invested in increasing state power. Conservatives in practice are quite happy to use state power on things that they like: especially with the police and the military.
SW-User
@Burnley123 [quote]I did give examples in the second and third paragraphs for definitions of far right. I had a link to a long-read argument about a far-right government. Did you read past the headline?[/quote]

I asked for what ideas you think are far-right, not for a list of countries you think may or may not be far-right. You are contending that the West (which, btw, encompasses more than Europe and U.S) is becoming increasingly far-right, but you haven't really told us what far-right [i]is[/i]. Moreover, the article only concerns Hungary, which is just one country in Europe and a place that is very different to other western countries.

[quote]Though are less radical than the US Republicans (as I said in the OP) the Tories are definitely a Conservative Party. Since Thatcher, they have championed deregulation, privatisation of UK industries, Union busting, and having low income and corporate tax. I could go on. This is not controversial.[/quote]

Great. They also introduced laws and policies which are demonstrably not right-wing.

[quote]I don't agree with this framing.[/quote]

That's concerning, given that limiting state powers and advocating individual liberty is one of the most fundamental aspects to right-wing politics.

[quote]The far-right is very much invested in increasing state power. Conservatives in practice are quite happy to use state power on things that they like: especially with the police and the military.[/quote]

*sigh*

You really need to pay attention to words and how they are defined, instead of casually using them to benefit whatever point you're attempting to make. "Far-right" and "conservatives" are not the same, yet in the paragraph above you appear to be suggesting they are, or you are at least identifying them as extremely similar.

In your own post, you said that you don't identify the Conservative Party in the U.K as "far-right", and that is the party I was addressing in my point on state powers and how right-wing politics advocates limiting them.

I would say this is a very good example of how the left, often intentionally, confuse right-wing with far-right.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@SW-User This is quite 'abrupt' in tone whilst also missing the point. I'm out but I'll deal with this later.
ArtieKat · M
Very well-written, even if I don't necessarily agree.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@ArtieKat Thanks
ArtieKat · M
@Burnley123 I don't have any better answers though.
Picklebobble2 · 56-60, M
When economics fails it signals the more extreme factions of politics to come to the fore.
When politics fails it signals the more radical ideologists to the fore.
If economics [i]and[/i] politics fail, at the same time, it's the perfect storm for extremist ideologies and positions of perceived strength to gain traction among those who are no longer interested in trying to work the problem.
ArtieKat · M
Apologies for sidetracking your post - I see that I've been blocked by "Adeptlinguist" who quite obviously threw a temper tantrum before I could read his parting shot. That's the sort of democracy he believes in: I'm taking my football and going home because I didn't win.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@ArtieKat Cheers. You probably don't think the same about my second comment but I respect your opinion.
ArtieKat · M
@Burnley123 LOL. Did you see my reply earlier to ConnyLinguist that I genuinely believe that if Ursula Von Der Leyen (and Charles Michel) had been in power preceding the Brexit referendum the outcome may have been very different. They have been far more pragmatic than the old guard and David Cameron might have had an easier task in promoting "Remain"
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@ArtieKat I did read that but imo it would only have been a slight change. The populist sentiment would have carried leave.
Graylight · 51-55, F
There's a great NYT podcast transcript (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/01/podcasts/transcript-ezra-klein-interviews-pippa-norris.html) dealing with just this question. It offers a complex but feasible answer to a complex question.
The radicalization of politics and religion is very disturbing, especially when they are so intertwined as in the neo-Fascist tides rising in so many places.
SW-User
Most definitely not. Everyone is so woke these days. When I went on a British cruise they wouldn’t even fly the British flag.
trollslayer · 46-50, M
Lets not forget the role of mental illness and lead poisoning.
revenant · F
@revenant you can put all the laughing emojis you want but truth is glaring. Globalists pushing marxism to make us all slaves
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@revenant 🤣
helenS · 36-40, F
@Burnley123 Bill Gates the marxist tries to make us all slaves (of MS Office, of course 😏)
I am economically more to the left. But socially more on the right (with caviets and nuances; I don't wanna make the world 1950 again). I can say HELL NO it's not. What the fuck is right wing about europe socially speaking? There is no honor culture.
SamInAZ · 41-45, M
@BRUUH Eastern Europeans are more socially conservative than Western Europeans. Poland & Hungary for some examples
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Unfortunately the left not listening to issues of everyday people's complaints has led to this.

The left of 15 years ago did not talk about the stuff the left today talks about- and expect ordinary people to believe it.
Yup. France caved. USA decisions are all about killing to maintain control. Britain is delusional and senile. Africa is ashamed to have been used as the western settler's sex doll.
Not just the West.... look at Modi's India
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@InOtterWords Definitely
Human1000 · M
I would say it’s moving away from a post WW2 liberal consensus on both sides, but mostly on the right which has become illiberal and authoritarian.

As you wrote [quote] More people are open to question whether the conventional politics of the last fifty years represent them amd are more open to alternatives.[/quote]
SamInAZ · 41-45, M
I hope so. My politics are definitely far-right on the political spectrum when I take those quizzes.

 
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