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EugenieLaBorgia · F
@IstillmissEP It is becoming a well-known fact that those whose view of patriotism is negative has been because they have been so weak-willed that they listen to every re-gurgitated opinion that is printed or written on the internet. Most non-patriots are without personality, character and integrity and seek only to gainan identity by being part of a discarded, dishwater recipe of culture. They often tremble with fear at the slightest dissonant sound and would far prefer to scurry away and hide in the nearest drainpipe when the slightest drop of independant thought falls from the sky.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@IstillmissEP
I used to live in London and you have clearly never been in your life. Your knowledge and experience of the world outside of mammas basement comes from alt-right Youtube channels but please feel happy to give opinions anyway. 😂
London is now a 3rd shithole.
I used to live in London and you have clearly never been in your life. Your knowledge and experience of the world outside of mammas basement comes from alt-right Youtube channels but please feel happy to give opinions anyway. 😂
Picklebobble2 · 56-60, M
I think your post illustrates the clear divide between younger people who like the European ideal and can see the potential, and the older generation who have seen all the pitfalls along the way in continuing to stay in a group where your voice of concern is drowned out by the majority.
The 'voice of concern' isn't fear mongering so much as the experience of watching the UK's influence on the world declining over time. Substituted by a group whom we didn't elect and have no say in their 'performance' unlike politicians in our own country.
That means it's 'easier' for the French and Germans to 'dictate' policy to be undertaken by other member states.
*Changes to laws that were once ours alone to make.
*The fact that France has never been serious about who comes in and out of their borders and the subsequent illegal immigrants Britain then has to deal with in terms of crime; unpaid income tax through illegal work; strain on healthcare etc.
*Our own governments indifference to not supporting the things Britain was known for manufacturing/producing etc.
And when you have a government determined to cut wages; rights; their own responsibilities etc. but STILL insist of spending unimaginable sums to continue to belong to the EU.....You can understand why there's frustration and resentment.
The 'voice of concern' isn't fear mongering so much as the experience of watching the UK's influence on the world declining over time. Substituted by a group whom we didn't elect and have no say in their 'performance' unlike politicians in our own country.
That means it's 'easier' for the French and Germans to 'dictate' policy to be undertaken by other member states.
*Changes to laws that were once ours alone to make.
*The fact that France has never been serious about who comes in and out of their borders and the subsequent illegal immigrants Britain then has to deal with in terms of crime; unpaid income tax through illegal work; strain on healthcare etc.
*Our own governments indifference to not supporting the things Britain was known for manufacturing/producing etc.
And when you have a government determined to cut wages; rights; their own responsibilities etc. but STILL insist of spending unimaginable sums to continue to belong to the EU.....You can understand why there's frustration and resentment.
MartinII · 70-79, M
@Picklebobble2 I agree with most of what you say, but I think there’s another, contrary, angle. Looked at objectively, remaining in the EU is the conservative option - better the devil you know - and leave the more radical option - riskier, but also more imaginative and idealistic.
Picklebobble2 · 56-60, M
@MartinII Objectivity on this subject died long ago.
It is a fact (like it or not) you either see the E:U in an optimistic light or you see it as a drain on money and self-governing ability.
It is also a fact that we as voters need to remind our governments that they are elected to serve US and NOT the other way around !
It is a fact (like it or not) you either see the E:U in an optimistic light or you see it as a drain on money and self-governing ability.
It is also a fact that we as voters need to remind our governments that they are elected to serve US and NOT the other way around !
NoSugar · 22-25, F
the UK will go down as the country that voted themself into oblivion...
scotland will leave... nothern ireland will have a new raise of terrorism... there will be a rift in the society lasting for decades...
hope it was worth it
scotland will leave... nothern ireland will have a new raise of terrorism... there will be a rift in the society lasting for decades...
hope it was worth it
NoSugar · 22-25, F
@gol979 northern ireland is the reason why i actually dont believe the brexit wil happen.
either you have a solid border between northern ireland and the rest of ireland which is madness... or you have a border between northern ireland and the rest of the uk which would be ridiculously embarassing.. or you dont have a brexit... there is only those 3 options
either you have a solid border between northern ireland and the rest of ireland which is madness... or you have a border between northern ireland and the rest of the uk which would be ridiculously embarassing.. or you dont have a brexit... there is only those 3 options
gol979 · 41-45, M
@NoSugar or Ireland unifies.....if they want to. And why are we getting business dictate what the options are? Surely the people of northern and southern Ireland could come to a decision that both sides are happy with then work out how goods maintain their integrity when being shipped to other parts of the world.
There are more options than those 3 you've listed but the status quo may need to change
There are more options than those 3 you've listed but the status quo may need to change
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
The EU unfortunately doesn't stand for any of these things outside the marketing brochure and cannot be relegated to the dustbin of history fast enough. That being said those leading the charge of Brexit are not exactly the best people for the job and in many cases have no plans at all for what happens after. The thing is a separate UK could be an opportunity to make the nation live up to such lofty ideals instead of paying lip service. A bad start does not have to mean disaster. Our first PM in Canada was an alcoholic who used to stroll through the red light district on the way to Parliament.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow
I mostly agree with your last paragraph and it's why I'm a corbynista.
As of the Brexit situation though, please understand that I live here and I've been actively canvassing in recent elections. There are some Lexiteers here but they are a fringe movement even on the British left.
I mostly agree with your last paragraph and it's why I'm a corbynista.
As of the Brexit situation though, please understand that I live here and I've been actively canvassing in recent elections. There are some Lexiteers here but they are a fringe movement even on the British left.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@Burnley123 I completely understand and I am just speculating from an outside perspective that if Cordyn can present a real alternative option he might find that some who were seduced by charismatic fools like Farage might come back to the fold so to speak. Unfortunately that might require the right crashing the whole thing first.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@Burnley123 As for the first paragraph I live in a country where the establishment left still thinks being the Liberal Party with different spelling is the way to power even when Jack Layton proved exactly the opposite.
EugenieLaBorgia · F
It is the European Union an Nato's policies of their updating of the UDHR Refugee act which allows illegal muslim immigration into Europe itself which is antagonising many. A shared identity will always be disastrous. Individual national identities can always be maintained without conflict. The EU, in particular, has become corrupt and no longer owes its allegiance to the identities of its member states. The individual identity of Scotland, Ireland, Wales and England will always exist.
EugenieLaBorgia · F
@NoSugar It doesn't, though. The 'model' of society just needs a little re-working. Trade can be established quite easily with member states outside of the EU and it is established even now with those outside of the EU.
misterjakelee · 31-35, M
Belief in Islam is a problem, particularly those with extreme/authoritarian beliefs, but closing off borders to them isn't a solution. Face the problem rather than trying to keep it out, Muslims are just people.
EugenieLaBorgia · F
@misterjakelee The problem is that in the Islamic architecture of culture, they themselves do not consider their beliefs extreme. This is the muslim viewpoint not mine. The dictate that non-muslims are either - according totheir own belief structure - infidel, Jew or Christian is the problem. Unless muslim women rise up against muslim men, there will be no change. Islam will only succeed as an integrating community when muslim women take the reins of the stallions with which their men are trampling others underfoot. Ask yourself this: how many many of non-muslim faith are actively supporting muslim women in their struggle against male dominance. When the Bengalis tried to shrug of the male dominance from the Islamic community in 1971, 3 million wereslaughtered and 500,000 women and children were raped - many to death. Now, the non-muslim men who support Islam in general are the same men who wish to rid the evolving equality between men and women in the hope that if the Islamic, male-dominated community gains a foothold, they themselves will be able to use that male; Islamic system to -again- subjugate their own women in their own communities.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Yeah but they are the working class peopke who are anti immigration.
The EU is neo liberal like the Canadian Liberal Party. Brexit is neo liberal like the American Republicans.
Unfortunately we do not have the strength to build a socialist alternative to the EU right now and this is a massive understatement. If France, with their militant Union movement, had Melechon as President then that would be a different conversation.
The Primary driver behind Brexit is right wing nationalism and this is not something that the left can, or should try to, absorb.
[media=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sltIisHseA]
The EU is neo liberal like the Canadian Liberal Party. Brexit is neo liberal like the American Republicans.
Unfortunately we do not have the strength to build a socialist alternative to the EU right now and this is a massive understatement. If France, with their militant Union movement, had Melechon as President then that would be a different conversation.
The Primary driver behind Brexit is right wing nationalism and this is not something that the left can, or should try to, absorb.
[media=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sltIisHseA]
gol979 · 41-45, M
While I agree with your sentiments and that's how the eu markets itself but it's hard to ignore the direction of the eu, as an establishment not the people, have turned into a neoliberal, austerity loving entity. TTIP being the obvious indication but there are plenty of others.
Also, the powerful view freedom of movement as the free movement of labour and while I agree this anti-immigrant narrative is corrosive and quite frankly bullshit, it's hard to deny that cheaper workers will keep wages and working conditions down. I'm not knocking the people who do this, I would do exactly the same.
If the eu did want to tackle this then surely an eu minimum wage aligned with workers rights should be at least proposed?
Also, the powerful view freedom of movement as the free movement of labour and while I agree this anti-immigrant narrative is corrosive and quite frankly bullshit, it's hard to deny that cheaper workers will keep wages and working conditions down. I'm not knocking the people who do this, I would do exactly the same.
If the eu did want to tackle this then surely an eu minimum wage aligned with workers rights should be at least proposed?
MartinII · 70-79, M
There’s not much point in voting in your poll since your own mind is obviously made up!
misterjakelee · 31-35, M
@MartinII don't be a pussy bro vote :)
JovialPlutonian · 36-40, M
Nationalists aren't ready for progression
Blodyn · 22-25, F
I don’t really understand why people are saying we must stick with the first referendum. The first referendum was in the 1970’s. Like 70 % for the EU. You decided. Stick with it! If it needs changing, change from the inside. Btw. A lot of older people are voting to leave. What did they vote in 1970 whatever it was?
Bro89 · 31-35, M
British White will cease to exist if interracial keeps up. Thank Goodness for BNP's and likes of EDL... One day they'll b pushed onto a small Island. Ruling and being populated to that of as tribes.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Bro89 Trrrrrroll.
Blodyn · 22-25, F
I can’t understand why we are leaving. They say we must respect the referendum. But nearly half the people who voted wanted to stay. And why can’t we respect the real first referendum which was in 1970 something.
Blodyn · 22-25, F
When we leave and the 5 out of ten people have won, what happens to the 5 out of ten people who want to stay? And how many of the 5 out of 10 who now want to leave voted to stay in 1975? The original referendum?
Northwest · M
You will not get an answer here, but you can probably ask Theresa May, she’s got it all figured out.
misterjakelee · 31-35, M
@Northwest
she's leaving bro
she's leaving bro
Northwest · M
LegendofPeza · 56-60, M
There is no obvious answer to that one.