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Do you have evidence to say that immigration damages your country?

Economic or otherwise. This is not gonna be a debate about the legality or ethics of immigration, just the impact. Anecdotal evidence is less neutral and less significant than statistics.
badminton · 61-69, MVIP
I am agreeable to sensible limits on immigration. However, before we go hating immigrants, we should remember, that unless you are a full-blood native American, almost all of us are decended from immigrants; Irish, English, Scandinavian, all of Europe, the middle east and Asia. Africans Americans are exempt since they were brought here by force against their will, so they are't really immigrants.
badminton · 61-69, MVIP
Remember "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free"? Its on the Statue of Liberty. Many of our ancestors saw that statue, coming into New York on a ship, going to Ellis Island, to later become citizens. If you're an O'Sullivan, a Murphy, an Olson, an Anderson, a Marco, a Wong, a Kim, etc, your ancestors were on those steamships. New immigrants coming, in -- they are us, 100-150 years ago.

I am sensible however, so I'm in favor of background checks on immigrants. That is a reasonable precaution. And we could set a limit on how many immigrants. But let's think and feel before we hate.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@badminton [quote]Remember "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free"?[/quote]

I think some Trumpsters think that the Statue of Liberty has a clear liberal bias, like reality.
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Adaydreambeliever · 56-60, F
Yea there are loads but I am betting you don't really want to hear.. for a start there's environmental impact.. the UK is a very small country and the parts that tend to have the highest concentrations tend to be the least able to sustain it, e.g. water resources etc.. Loss of countryside and biodiversity is just one.... Resources like the NHS and schools is another.. problems like child sex rings and people trafficking.. In Germany increase in sexual crimes.. and so on... I could write so much more but as I say it's almost always pointless.. And BTW I am NO racist.. it's just that it's entirely wrong to say there is no impact or that the impact is always good..
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@TotalMiss The US had about 330 million people, not 3mil. How embarrassing that you don't even have a clue about the population of your own country. 🤦
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hlpflwthat · M
@Burnley123 This is katielass - just as sure as you're Brit ;)
windinhishair · 61-69, M
Wow. Just wow. So many unsubstantiated claims and name-calling, but I think I only saw a single link to one article out of more than 200 replies? Is this really the best the anti-immigrant crowd can do? I really would like to read some well-researched articles that provide evidence of the damaging effects of immigrants. The ones I've seen tend to focus on the costs and leave out the financial contributions like paying taxes, increased spending, etc. I've seen a number of articles that provide actual data showing that the financial contributions of even illegal immigrants exceed the cost of the services they use. Surely someone must have researched information that would support the belief that immigration negatively impacts their country.

Anecdotally, I know that immigrants can negatively impact a specific area and service, though this would be a local or possibly regional impact, not a national one. I lived in a border city near Mexico for a few years, and the local hospital services were stretched thin by immigrant women who would cross the border to have their babies in the US, thus obtaining US citizenship for their offspring. The number of babies born far exceeded that which would be expected on the basis of the local population, and the hospitals provided those services on an emergency basis, even though the cost of extra nurses, doctors, and other personnel and infrastructure were costs they would never recover. That was well before 9/11, and crossing the border is much more difficult now than it was then, so it is likely less of an issue at present.
windinhishair · 61-69, M
@MrBrownstone I get that. But that wasn't what the OP was about.
Miram · 31-35, F
@windinhishair I am not anti immigration. And I am pretty sure a couple of those who responded aren't anti immigration either. I am an immigrant myself. There is only one element of immigration that I oppose.
windinhishair · 61-69, M
@Miram I get it. But do you have any evidence or documentation of how immigration is detrimental to the country, as the OP asked?
ExtremeNext · 31-35
Why even ask if you or anybody else thinks it doesn't you are clearly a dumb arse
Northwest · M
@Burnley123 Kind of like second generation "offshoring" of immigrants.
nedkelly · 61-69, M
@Burnley123 off-shore detention centers are for ILLEGAL immigrants
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@nedkelly Exactly
Miram · 31-35, F
Undocumented means no security checks. In Algeria, plenty of terrorists moved in that way from other countries during the late 80s to 2001.
I am sure the same can happen elsewhere.

Also when competent individuals start moving out from the country in huge numbers, it damages the economy of their motherland.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@TotalMiss Bollocks. All you posts asking others to provide links for you is the height of passive aggression. You ask others to do what you can't to deflect from the fact that you don't have a clue.
Miram · 31-35, F
@Burnley123 @TotalMiss Come on both of you 🤗 No more arguing. It is just politics. At the end of the day we all want the same thing.
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Burnley123 · 41-45, M
I'm going to work tomorrow and need to sleep. If anyone can provide evidence of the damaging effects of immigration then I'll read the links and respond the next day.

If not, I won't bother because so far its been an epic fail from you guys. 🤦

Sweet dreams sweeps. 😘
@TotalMiss I know you are supporting me, but we can’t engage in discourse that way. I am aware that I will not be able to provide convincing evidence because the required weight of evidence is not there. The same is true in reverse.

The truth lies somewhere in between and the only way we can get to that truth is listening to each other. Wobbly and uncertain as the conversation may be, it’s a start.

My purpose here is not to persuade, but to introduce the possibility that a dissenting opinion doesn’t demonstrate evil intent. I don’t want to eat illegal immigrants. I don’t even want to prevent their entry into the US. I only want for us to find some sane and humane solution that ignores neither the rights of current citizens nor those of future citizens.

I think we SHOULD find a way to admit asylum seekers. Surely history has taught us that. A system should be developed, and fast, to do that while maintaining security for the nation we all want to share.

We need either both parties or no party to do that properly. We need to be able to talk.
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@TotalMiss Perfectly legitimate. I have no issue with different opinions. And thank you for your kind support.
Okay. Here you go. Washington Examiner. $135 billion annually. Illegal immigration.

Because you would not clarify the question, just as you don’t want to read a whole paper to find the information, I don’t want to spend my time on a spreadsheet.

[image=https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/record-135-billion-a-year-for-illegal-immigration-average-8-075-each-25-000-in-ny]

I will be eagerly waiting to learn why this is not legitimate information and how I am an immigrant-hating bigot.
SW-User
@Mamapolo2016 Perhaps I was wrong about you.
@SW-User There’s a start. Perhaps I am wrong about you, too.
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CountScrofula · 41-45, M
I mean, Canada wouldn't exist without immigration. Maybe the First Nations people have some very strong opinions about it, but otherwise we not only require immigration, but we need a LOT MORE. Underpopulation is causing all sorts of logistical problems.
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CountScrofula · 41-45, M
@TotalMiss Unrelated to the point I was making about immigration vs colonialism in Canada.
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chrisCA · M
Statistics? Why let those get in the way of hysteria , and xenophobia?
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@chrisCA I was trying to give anti-immigration people benefit of the doubt but really? This is disappointing even based on my low expectations. Fifteen odd people have answered. A minority have posted reasonable points but no evidence and that is it. Its just insults and one-word answers mostly.
chrisCA · M
@Burnley123 It is no different on Facebook.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@chrisCA Fun for all the friends and family. 😂
Interesting that no one can give any evidence
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@TotalMiss I don't need to cos I know. You are just pretending... and doing it badly. 🤣
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Burnley123 · 41-45, M
http://www.economicsonline.co.uk/Managing_the_economy/The_multiplier_effect.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggregate_demand

You know nothing. Bye
Northwest · M
I would never say immigration damages my country. Anecdotally, the high tech industry I am very familiar with, was made possible thanks to immigrants. Apple's Jobs is the son of a Syrian Muslim immigrant, who started out as an illegal immigrant, for instance.

As to a more general purpose study:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/immigrants-impact-on-the-u-s-economy-in-7-charts/
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Northwest · M
@TotalMiss [quote]Salaries in Silicon Valley would be higher[/quote]

The average salary for a computer scientist in the Silicon Valley, is about $130K. Those with 10+ years of experience, earn more than $250K per year. Those with stock options, which is not something salary surveys take into consideration, make $Ms.

Perhaps you can share why you think salaries would be higher?

[quote]and the cost of living lower[/quote]

And this is where you demonstrate how ignorant you are.

higher salaries = higher home prices
higher salaries = higher cost of living

This is economic 101, and common sense 001. Not to mention the empirical data, showing the Bay Area as the most expensive real estate / cost of living in the nation.

Try gain.

[quote]if it were not for the policies that have exponentially increased the numbers of foreign tech workers since the 1990s. [/quote]

More ignorant blabber. I would not have hired a single H1-B Visa applicant, had I been able to hire a US citizen or legal resident. Even if I wanted to wanted to. I was required to advertise the job for several months, AND prove that the H1-B applicant had unique skills, that are impossible to find locally.

There was, however, a small percentage of those "Einstein Visas", that were awarded for people with special, but not technical skills. Once was awarded to Mrs Trump, for his "modeling" skills.

[quote]Silicon Valley has truly become a shit hole.[/quote]

Please, go ahead, don't hide your racism.
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MrBrownstone · 46-50, M
badminton · 61-69, MVIP
@MrBrownstone If by 'welfare' you mean General Assistance, that is very hard to get on. Remember, people on any kind of government assistance immediately put their money into the most productive sectors of economy, buying goods and services, paying sales taxes, etc.
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Jackaloftheazuresand · 26-30, M
one immigrant committed a crime once, I know that's not what you wanted in actuality but you left it open for use
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Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@TotalMiss Did he doctor his own film or did Rebel Media doctor it? 🤣
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Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@TotalMiss I have done all these things and your opinion is still wrong IMO. The question asked for people to provide evidence. Provide it or give up.
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Ironicman · 56-60, M
Conclusions

19. In the short term the UK needs to build more homes. In the future, any housing strategy must address both supply and demand. Immigration is a major part of housing demand. Unless net migration is reduced to a manageable and sustainable level a large house building programme will have to continue indefinitely, with all the costs and loss of amenities involved.

Updated 17 January, 2018

Settlement occurs where work opportunities exist. Sadiq Kahn has told all 32, London boroughs to develope and to do it aggressively. In my borough there is a call for sites taking place, planning constraints to be lifted and amenities of open space developed. Overtime the landscape will change. High density concentrated development in suburban areas will IMHO, ruin those areas. People will not settle where there is no easy access or commute to work. The building targets will not be met. I reckon 30% of target is achievable at a push and on that scale a lot of people will feel areas are ripped apart and ruined where scarce amenity space is taken away.
SW-User
I would say European immigration and conquest had a deleterious effect on aboriginal "nations" of the New World.😌
CountScrofula · 41-45, M
@SW-User It's reasonable to make a distinction between colonialism and immigration.
SW-User
@CountScrofula It is, I agree. The immigration of Europeans to America was the cause or rationalization for some pretty bad policies, too.
CountScrofula · 41-45, M
@SW-User Immigration is not inherently colonial. The Americas were literally turned into colonies and the local peoples suffered brutally from it. To this day, it is a constant battle for them to assert their own culture and beliefs because of colonial influences.

Stopping immigration, or increasing immigration has absolutely no impact on that. They could vastly outnumber the settlers and still be subject to colonialism. It's about whether or not they have authority and some measure of power. They can get that and still allow for immigration.

I've been to talks by elders on this, and their line has consistently been immigration is fine provided we have our say.
In order to determine impact, it is necessary for you to define ‘immigration’ as encompassing all immigrants, immigrants entering the country in question legally, or those entering without fulfilling legal requirements for admission.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Mamapolo2016 Its a reasonable response but the link is to stories with one-off examples and not stats. If you can remember a story with stats then post it and I'll read it but asking me to read through everything a paper has written on immigration is a big ask.

[quote]It might be educational for those in other nations who have such loathing for Americans who ask about legality to take a look at their OWN country’s immigration quotas per capita, per land acre, per whatever.[/quote]

I'm not sure but this might be aimed at me. I am highly critical of my own country's politics and have argued with several fellow Brits on here. This question is not America specific. I have been to America several times, I have an American ex-wife and I like the country. I have a lot of political opinions but do not hate Americans.
@Burnley123 It was not aimed at you. It was aimed at those who take the position ‘don’t do as we do, do as we say.’
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Mamapolo2016 OK. Fair enough. I apologise for reading that wrong.
kate21 · 26-30, F
It does suppress wages in low-skill industries.

I’m pro-immigration, but that’s something to address.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@kate21 Thanks. Number two on my list in all these comments. Ill respond tomorrow
basilfawlty89 · 31-35, M
@kate21 The fault doesn't lie with immigrants though, it lies with greedy owners and employers. Working people don't really have countries. Many of us have moved to different countries (this includes Americans btw) for work opportunities. Instead of fighting with fellow workers, we need to band together.
GeniUs · 56-60, M
I have a number of problems with the information in that article even if I accept it on face value, as it is portrayed to make immigration appear a positive thing.
The NHS relying on migrant labour to provide the service it does. A country should be able to provide a health service with all but very few specialists drawn from the native workforce, that the NHS cannot requires investigation ( I could suggest reasons this is the case).
Also I have issue with some of your points:
"Our unemployment rate is actually really low", accepting the level of unemployment is not acceptable (for want of a better phrase).
"Immigrants contribute more than they takeout (as my link shows) because the vast majority work, pay their taxes and use relatively little services"
I could not find how the link portrayed this but it is a statement I have heard before but without knowing the measures for such a statement it means nothing. Have they included the burden on the NHS, law enforcement, housing, other infrastructure? Or is it just a statement saying that taxes paid in are in excess of benefits paid out?
I hope before accepting that article you have questioned every point it raises.
Ironicman · 56-60, M
Planned and controlled its fantastic. Unplanned economic migration to the UK has had a significant impact on some communities where the infrastructure cannot support volume Rogue private landlords have exploited vulnerable groups. Where settlement is high it's created community cohesion problems. Demand for housing in city areas has pushed rents sky high. Meanwhile wages have been held artificially low for too long with cheap labour. Many people I speak with, particularly the younger generation feel forgotton.
@Ironicman isn't that more a population issue?
Ironicman · 56-60, M
Yes it is, however economic migration settlement has hit areas of deprivation . Particularly on the fringes of city centres and those communities, not all, are struggling to keep pace with demand. Meanwhile migrants exploited. It's not the migrants fault it's government policy. The question was has migration damaged your country. Not has the migrant damaged your country. I think it's fair to say that mass economic migration seen in the Blair years has impacted on many communities negatively @InOtterWords
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Steve42 · 56-60, M
Yes. The avocados in California are rotting on the trees because they can't find people to hire to pick them. All because Trumps immigration polices are keeping people willing to do that work from the workplace. No Trump Supporter will do this work. Killing the small to mid sized farmers.
chrisCA · M
@Steve42 Certain segments of society are only accepted when they can be exploited.
Well. As I am told, all immigration since reconstruction has had a negative influence on America. That's the current political position. So yea. I don't know how one defends that.

I don't know why it's not enough to just end illegal immigration.
CountScrofula · 41-45, M
138 comments and... How much evidence so far?
CountScrofula · 41-45, M
@Burnley123 Yeah, you're setting the terms for the right discussion but nobody is really stepping up to it. I mean....

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctpb21/Cpapers/CDP_03_08.pdf

Study which shows that immigration negatively affects wages for lower-pay jobs. This took me around two minutes to find.

Now it was sandwiched between several other studies that give a broader, more positive view of immigration. But nobody even cherry-picked something like this. They didn't care to.
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CountScrofula · 41-45, M
@TotalMiss Okay. I'm going to take one stab at this.

[b]Burden of proof is on the claimant.[/b] This is a foundational principle in philosophy and law and is integrated in to all western thought.

If you make an assertion that someone disagrees with, it is [i]your job[/i] to provide evidence. This is to prevent situations where I say something stupid like "My keyboard keeps away tigers" and tell you to find the evidence for me. It wastes your time. It is my job to prove my assertions, just as it is yours.

Burnley posted - in good faith - a request for evidence supporting a popular argument. [i]If you can't provide evidence, I have no reason to believe you about anything.[/i] It is your job to prove that you're right. Not mine.

To prove my point, I will not ask you to spend the requisite five seconds googling burden of proof. I'll do it for you.

http://www.blackwellreference.com/public/tocnode?id=g9781405106795_chunk_g97814051067953_ss1-119

http://www.qcc.cuny.edu/SocialSciences/ppecorino/PHIL_of_RELIGION_TEXT/CHAPTER_5_ARGUMENTS_EXPERIENCE/Burden-of-Proof.htm

https://ethicalrealism.wordpress.com/2012/05/06/what-is-the-burden-of-proof/
SW-User
Immigration is positive, it brings useful skills into a country and diversity means a culture doesn't get stale it keeps things fresh to have different perspectives.
Nyloncapes · 61-69, M
Burnley I am not against immigration , but here in the UK, it has to be controlled, we are a small country, and we can not keep taking hundreds of thousands each year, we have NHS, can't cope, housing shortage , and schools can't keep taking them. And when people say that it's not down to immigration, I say well where do all these people live, where do they get medical attention. And where do there kids go to school then
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Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@TotalMiss He is a nice guy and I know him on here, though we disagree on this.
basilfawlty89 · 31-35, M
@Nyloncapes Yes, but that could also be due to bad financing. Think about it - how much compensation did people in the Grenfell Tower get vs how much was spent on the royal wedding?
hlpflwthat · M
Sorry - I don't have any evidence that immigration has damaged my country.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@hlpflwthat LOL. This is how most people o here should have answered.
dude this is sw. 80% of the people here are extreme nationalists and hate immigrants
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@TotalMiss Insomniac is actually a libertarian. I'm a democratic socialist and would disagree with him on very many issues. At least we can debate in good faith though and try to understand each other's views as presented.
@TotalMiss lol wtf?
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@LvChris Our conversation is over. Have a good life.
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I’m not sure what you’re looking for. 🤔
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@bijouxbroussard All the SW posts on immigration in the last week have been heavy on this illegal immigration being a problem. So much has focused on personal insults, 'liberal hypocrisy' and the legality of immigration. Nothing has been focused on why immigration is a problem, yet the entire debate is based on the presumption that it is one. I'm looking for these people to provide evidence and so far they have not.
@Burnley123 I can’t find statistics that are not tied in with white supremacist sites, and give no credence to those. But I’ve lived in sanctuary cities for about 30+ years. Immigration isn’t damaging. My state working around illegal immigration has often been problematic.

 
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