Update
Only logged in members can reply and interact with the post.
Join SimilarWorlds for FREE »

Is it really Democracy Trump is threatening or is it civil society?


To ensure that our democracy survives and that violence is not regarded as an alternative to victory at the ballot box, Trump’s conduct must have consequences. Refusing to prosecute Trump and his inner circle would only encourage irreverence to democracy. What a monumental failure of leadership that would be.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/06/22/jan-6-merrick-garland-prosecution-donald-trump/

I get the appeal of trying to paint Trumpism as fascism or Autocracy, etc, but really, once you start encouraging citizens to attack other citizens, even if they are public servants, it seems like you're going way past democracy.

Even Monarchies and chieftainships had laws and mechanisms for state sponsored dispute resolution to keep people from killing each other.

I'm thinking some pre-historic hunt leader, probably told hot blooded warrior/hunters first told folks to not kill each other and submit to some sort of third party judgment, if only to make sure there were enough hunters left to feed the tribe.

Vigilantism and lawlessness isn't just undemocratic. It's uncivilized, imo.
Northwest · M
The fact that the former Governor of Missouri, and currently Senate candidate for same state, thought it was a good idea to produce a video, showing him storming a house, in full battle gear, to hunt RINOs, tells you that the real threat is to civil society.
@Northwest That's what bugs me about this new "Conservatism" which seems to want to conserve practically nothing and convert us back into a state of nature with no respect for each other.

Our ancestors wouldn't have survived with this crap and even dogs and wolves don't kill off their own pack members indiscriminately out of sheer selfishness.

Tigers might do that, but not primates, or even more social predators like lions.

Hobbes always made sense to me.
room101 · 51-55, M
Since trump announced that he was running for President, I've been wary of painting him as the evil mastermind who wants to tear down democracy etc etc etc. For sure, he represents everything that I find most abhorrent in the human condition (as do his his supporters) but, one of those abhorrent characteristics is wanton stupidity. He simply does not have the intelligence, focus or determination to pull any of this off.

He's a callous, unprincipled yob whose narcissism when coupled with his abject stupidity makes him believe all of his bullshit.

No, what's happening in America is not some evil plot devised by trump so that he can stay in power. It's the culmination of 250 years of Americans believing one myth after another whilst revelling in the destruction of those around them "so long as I've got mine Jack".
room101 · 51-55, M
@MistyCee Yes it is extremely naive to believe that a bunch of 18th century yahoos could devise anything that would stand the test of time. And yet, Americans consider their Constitution and Bill of Rights to be on a par with the Ten Commandments!

THAT's what I'm "indicting" America for. Those documents are great as aspirations BUT, societies change and evolve and adhering to 250 year old documents stunts any hope of change and evolution. Then there's the rather thorny issue that, even as your Bill of Rights was being written, it was accepted that it would only apply to a significant minority of your population. Women didn't have those rights, indigenous people didn't have those rights and blacks certainly didn't have any of those rights.
This comment is hidden. Show Comment
room101 · 51-55, M
@RedBaron As you have already surmised, trump has not yet announced that he is running in 2024. Ergo, the only logical alternative is that I was referring to the past.

You seem to be very prone to being mistaken.............about a lot.
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
I still say Trump is a symptom. Not the cause. Sure he emboldens the knuckledraggers. But society produces them.. And until you make the changes to society and allow them to bed in, the Trumps will keep coming.😷
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@sunsporter1649 I have no idea what you are trying to say... But neither do you I suspect.😷
sunsporter1649 · 70-79, M
@whowasthatmaskedman You don't recognize your loyal demonocrat voters! Amazing!!
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@sunsporter1649 I dont have democrats..😷
How about BOTH!
Budwick · 70-79, M
Civilization is founded on communal concerns and motivations. It predates social contract theory, democracy, and even a dictatorship or monarchy can't govern without norms, laws, and some sort of ordered dispute resolution.

Yeah, like one sided fake trials that don't allow opposition.
@Budwick McCarthy had options to allow opposition to this, and even Trump is criticsing him or how he dealt with them.

McCarthy basically decided that "fake trials" were preferable to more "real ones."

Trump's now pissing on him, but he's still not willing to expose his dick under oath.
Budwick · 70-79, M
@MistyCee As usual, you a are not specific.

Look, The panel includes seven Democrats and two Republicans - all Trump enemies.
Sound fair to you?
@Budwick I never said it was fair. McCarthy made it less so by pulling all five Republicans, though, instead of just the 2 Pelosi rejected. There could have been 3 more Republicans on the Committee, as Trump has just pointed out again, but McCarthy decided to play it this way.

I actually agree with Trump here. This is not a trial and McCarthy seems to have set it up to be even less trial-like.
Roadsterrider · 56-60, M
Unfortunately, the country is forced into a 50/50 split towards the left or the right. There is no middle ground even though the majority of voters are moderates. I don't see Trump trying to destroy democracy or civility, I see him trying to destroy the Washington "Status Quo".
@Roadsterrider Not all Democrats are fighting criminal charges and lots of them are pretty frustrated with Garland at the moment, though.

Also, the House may not just be limited to censure. This idea is a little wacky, but here's a plan to keep Trump from running:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/06/23/there-better-option-keep-trump-office-than-prosecution/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=wp_opinions
Roadsterrider · 56-60, M
@MistyCee Is this about law or just damaging a candidate they can't run against. Personally, if as the democrats say, criminal activity, I want to see them before a judge and prosecuted.
@Roadsterrider I get what you're saying, but law and politics aren't totally separate. I'd love to see Trump prosecuted, but politically, I'm not sanguine about it happening at the federal level, and this at least, is something Congress might be able to accomplish without getting squashed by the Supreme Court.

Having said that, I'm not really endorsing it as much as pointing it out, and reading the Bruen decision, I'm not so sure that it's worth the effort.

In 10 minutes, I could probably outline how to use Thomas "history only" based approach to declare a disqualification procedure unconstitutional.

This case is likely the most revolutionary, imo, since maybe Marbury v Madison.
sunsporter1649 · 70-79, M
"I want to tell you, Gorsuch; I want to tell you, Kavanaugh: You have released the whirlwind, and you will pay the price. You won’t know what hit you if you go forward with these awful decisions."
@monte3 I may have hit the button by mistake, actually. I've done it before.
monte3 · 70-79, M
@sunsporter1649 I don’t want to waste time with you anymore, I suspect as I lie dying my only regrets will be not buying MSFT in 1987 and wasting time on SW. But it have to say watching the hearings today I had the revelation that trump is you! No matter how many time the truth is presented he go back to positions clearly disproved.

And all in all yeah the select committee is working to preserve the constitution, which trumpsie so obviously tried to end.
sunsporter1649 · 70-79, M
@monte3 LOL, and to think you believe that bullschiff. Amusing
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
Definitely both. It's to the point where you tell people that behaving in a certain way is rude, offensive, or whatever, and you just don't do that in polite society, and they respond with "Lol, cope, snowflake!" Nobody wants to be even remotely polite. And as you say, vigilantism and lawlessness run directly counter to the idea of a civilized society.
@LordShadowfire Civilization is founded on communal concerns and motivations. It predates social contract theory, democracy, and even a dictatorship or monarchy can't govern without norms, laws, and some sort of ordered dispute resolution.
Budwick · 70-79, M
Is it really Democracy Trump is threatening or is it civil society?

Trump threatens the democrat party.
Cuz, Trump is FOR America, and gets stuff done.
Those are two things that democrats do not like.
@Budwick Yeah! He gets stuff done - like that wall he built…

Four years. He couldn’t even build a fucking wall.
MarineBob · 56-60, M
i do hope President Trump pays you well
@MarineBob Does he ever pay his debts?
It's definitely both that are threatened by conservatives, not just Trump.
sunsporter1649 · 70-79, M
@Roundandroundwego Enjoy your "civil society".

This comment is hidden. Show Comment
@SW-User There's certainly a potential conflict if you think of the second amendment as an unlimited individual right to rebel or for self defense.

The militia clause may not have been perfect, but I think it at least should be some indication that the founding fathers didn't want anarchy.
Freeranger · M
Ttally depends on who is asking the question, and to what end.
This comment is hidden. Show Comment
This comment is hidden. Show Comment
Crazywaterspring · 61-69, M
Does a pig sty stink?
This comment is hidden. Show Comment
tindrummer · M
@Ferise1 yeah, right - anything he or you don't like is fake - truth be damned
This comment is hidden. Show Comment
@Ferise1 And Freedom is everything?

 
Post Comment