Some clarifications about the Downvote

If all of this is true, why then have the downvote

Hmmmm... Well this is clearer, thanks.

I have a worry :

People are different.
And so there are different ways in which people use this site.

And I've noticed a change in the last 8 months or so, (whether it has to do with users leaving, I don't know, or culture change due to new style users), but not as many hearts are being used on posts.

Therefore, if users aren't keen to heart posts as much now, then users who pick up this option to downvote, adds emphasis to its power.

There has developed a more neutral culture of late, compared to the one we had, and it's noticeable.

We spoke years ago about the response emojis. And the general conclusion was - to make this place easier to respond, but maintain possitivity.

I don't understand why this has been challenged by a downvote option.

People are imperfect, we are impulsive, we get angry and upset, and can act on those Impluses.

My fear is, and culture reflects it... We feed on anger and conflict as a whole.... Therefore, empowering an anonymous way to be negative, and affect anothers freedom to be heard (seen, in this case), doesn't bode well.

I mean, it was tried before on EP, and upset users, and was removed not long after.

If this is the case, then my questions are, why was it removed?

And why try something again, if it:

wasn't well received the first time,

was thrown out,

was voted out by majority a few years ago ....

And enables anonymous negative affects on a user's visability.... With no basic rules of engagement except desire to do so?

Surely, if you can make us visably accountable for possitive responses.... Enabling us to be anonymous for negative ones, gives more freedom to breeding negativity....becuase it takes away accountability.

Just take it out already. If you don’t like a user then mute or block. All this does is give morons and prudes ammunition to be dicks. How in the world does that button being unity or fun to this site? It’s a device to cause paranoia and bad feelings. This upgrade was a fail. Let’s face it.

This reads like you’re trying to justify the non justifiable. You haven’t stated a legitimate reason anywhere. In addition, this is vague, arbitrary and subject to abuse. I respectfully recommend that you scrap this and go back to the drawing board.

You raise another subject. What is this “reputation”? What does it mean? Who sees it? Why does it exist?

I would really appreciate direct answers not vague attempted justifications. Thank you.

[b]Remove it[/b]

Treating us like we are stupid, is not a good look.

Excellent rationals have been put forward, to eliminate it.

Yet you still push it forward.

More member damage is occurring from this, than all the nudity this site has ever witnessed.

Drinkers need to know when to stop drinking

Programmers also need to know when to let the koolaid rest.

I have given up

For the others ... [i]remove it[/i]

Dear admins,

First of all, thank you for recognizing that [i]many/most of us are not happy with it[/i], but then it stops right there. You won't give it any value, you made polls on the subject, and the majority voted it to be a bad idea, in the comments it's been elaborated, and it's still very much the same concerns that a lot of your veteran members are bringing to you after you just implemented it anyway. You've been adjusting things a bit, but as for your clarifications...

[quote][S]ometimes you get 1 or 2 downvotes, out of MANY good reactions[/quote]

[i]1 or 2 downvotes seems to be of importance, as you keep mention it in your "clarification" of the downvotes. What if it's 3 or 4? It's not unlikely it could happen?[/i]

[sep]

[quote][A] user that has been downvoting you in many posts, that user will eventually start seeing less contents from you[/quote]

[i]Frankly, the only clarification that makes any sense, and is to be looked at in a positive way. Imho.[/i]

[sep]

[quote]You don't have to worry if a user tries to use multiple accounts to downvote you. Either the system knows about it already, or will know in the future[/quote]

[i]Why won't we have to worry? The sytem doesn't detect when users gets back with new accounts to keep up "fucking around" with those they hate. Why would the system suddenly detect it now?[/i]

[sep]

[quote]A comment or post will only be pushed down if the amount of downvotes surpass the amount of good reactions

You don't have to worry about the visibility of your contents being impacted just because of 1 or 2 downvotes, when you got several good reactions too[/quote]

[i]What guarantee is there for a fully sincere, authentic, genuine and valid post won't be pushed down? Again, you keep bringing these 1 or 2 downvotes up. A lot of users have more than 2 haters.

Is this a way to force your members to block each other as soon as they don't see eye on stuff like sexuality, politics, religion, racism, abortions etc., as a way to avoid drama and establish echo chambers instead of decent ways of communication?[/i]

[sep]

[quote]Even if a post of yours got more downvotes than good reactions, it doesn't mean that your audience will be impacted on other stories/questions that you post in the future. It only affects the post that got downvoted[/quote]

[i]See the above comment made for the previous clarification.[/i]

[sep]

[quote]The downvote does have a slight impact on your account reputation, but that impact is VERY negligible. If you...[/quote]

[i]We were told it would have no impact on our reputation. Now it does, but we're told that impact is VERY negligible, though without any further explanation.[/i]

[sep]

Seriously, this isn't thought through, or you're not being honest with us all. I stand by my previous comments on this subject, about what I have said in the past when you had your poll in March 2018 as of when you announced this piece of new feature. It sucks.

Punish me for criticizing you [admins], if you must and tell me again that I am trying turning other members against you [admins] but I have still not gotten any answers on my concerns. I'm leaving out any "sarcastic" emojis.

Thank you,
Sapph

Here's the core it this :

This is what we have To show
Our opinions on posts and replies
They WERE of all equal value.

Till now.

one of these has been given agirythmic computing power.

It has become MORE than just an opinion.

Since when does one type of opinion have value over others?

It is biased
It is UNETHICAL

and you know it.

What happened to freedom of Speech and equality?

It should have the same value.... Just a personal opinion, like all the others.

Is there even a single SWer who wants this downvote feature?

We don't want you controlling our feed, we can do that by ourselves thanks by muting/blocking.

People shouldn't be penalised AT ALL if their opinions go against the majority of people (unless they break the TOS).
Minority opinions still count.

I was gonna ask for clarification if this then meant that this applied globally, but I see you've answered that for others. You might want to edit that into your opening post in cleartext that "heavily downvoted post will be pushed down on [u]everyone's[/u] feed".

I've tried asking this many times before without getting a clear answer, will we have a way to see the unfiltered, chronological feed for those of us who want to decide for ourselves if a post is interesting to us or not?

[b]EDIT: [/b]Gotten an answer to this in another comment. They are considering it (but not definite answer yet it seems). For more info read the last few replies on this comment:
https://similarworlds.com/groups/admin-announcements/4015628-Some-clarifications-about-the-Downvote?rid=48052471
[b]END OF EDIT[/b]

[sep]

[quote]5) The downvote does have a slight impact on your account reputation, but that impact is VERY negligible. If you maintain a much higher amount of good reactions, versus the amount of downvotes, your account will NEVER suffer any consequences. Only accounts who have more downvotes than good reactions are the ones that will be really impacted. 😊[/quote]

You keep saying it has minimal impact, but never clearly specify what this supposed impact actually is. Minimal impact is still some impact, so what does this "minimal impact" entail? And for those accounts that get more downvotes than good reactions, what kind of impact do they receive?

Also, what happens if a post is made by a user that tends to be fairly invisible to the masses here, at a time with low traffic and they get 3 downvotes and 1 heart on their post. Does the system then say "oh hey, it's a 3 to 1 downvote, this is a horrible post so let's push it down"?

[sep]

[quote]As for the Downvote, if the amount of [valid/legit] downvotes surpass the amount of good reactions, then that post will be pushed down to everyone, because it's obviously not a good post/comment.[/quote]

I think this is a bit of a bad leap to make. It could indeed mean it is a bad post... or it could mean it is a legit acceptable post that goes against popular opinion. This is one of the dangers of this system if you ask me.

I dont know anything about how to run a successful website. Dont fully understand algorithms and how the site generates new interest or makes any money, sponsors etc although i do understand all these things are taken in to consideration in order to make it a success.

But... ive been a member of dozens and dozens of wonderful online communities over the years that have been spoilt by that one change too far, one unpopular 'improvement', admins overzelously giving warnings and removing post, and not willing to take on board what makes the community unhappy, unwilling to rectify it.
Id hate to see SW go the way of many others because people are feeling their use of this place is becoming more restricted and access to the community as a whole less availble to more and more members.
Ive seen it happen so often. What was once a varied vibrant community becanes like an excusive 'old boys club' with a small number of users running the show as their own and many members feeling theres not a lot happening for them anymore.

Please please dont let this happen to SW.

@Andrew, @Nuno, just remove it. We're not your students, we don't need a pep talk on "[b]what's all this negativity?" [/b]
I don't need a psychological text book reply from any of you! All I need is a yes that it will be removed!
Please respect my wishes for not replying, but only if the answer is "yes"
It's causing stress and negative energy,
We have enough of that with the sick twisted trolls you allow to join sw. We've put up with that long enough! Ypu should have done a vote first, than causing anxiety to people's gained confidence and disturbing their journey here!

Tbh I rarely comment on posts like this but I’m just really not understanding the point of having a downvote. It feels like change for the sake of change instead of addressing an actual need on the site.

So, admin. In what circumstances should we use this feature?
If i dont like the subject of a post? if i think the post is in awful taste? If someone is insulting or bullting another? If i dont agree with an opinion?
Im just not sure where its the right place to use it?

I applaud you for trying to improve SW but you are trying to fix something that isn't broke.

This feature is about as useful as an ashtray on a motorcycle.

This is just my two cents here...

Every single site I have ever been on before this one was NOT enhanced by anything anonymous! If you want a downvote feature, let that person's identity show. Some people only downvote because they dislike [i]you[/i], not your [i]opinion[/i].

Don't we have enough drama on this site as it is?

I've read through the comments. It seems the down vote feature isn't something people want to use.
I suggest remove it. This will cover any eventuality and confusion.
There is no pro to using it. Except a really dark way to hate on someone.
You're meant to promote a community yet you're pitting us against each other. Bravo

Well thanks for clearing up many questions.

I feel like it's still pointless though and aren't mute and block enough?

Whatever happens if I or anyone else is downvoted, most of us don't like this feature whatsoever.

If I am feeling low and I post a selfie or say I'm feeling ill or down, even 1 or 2 anonymous down votes may upset me/whomever.

I can't understand sticking with something that really nobody wants.

What is the benefits of this?

@Nuno [quote]As for the Downvote, if the amount of [valid/legit] downvotes surpass the amount of good reactions, then that post will be pushed down to everyone, because it's obviously not a good post/comment.[/quote]

If I may ask, what do [i]you [/i]consider a good post or comment? I am very concerned how someone could be targeted and it looks like they deserved the downvotes. I honestly don't know why you would even want to take on the added burden of deciphering all this.

If you agree that getting "more lovers than haters" is important, can you see that more people here disagree than agree with the new feature?

I promise you that my concern is genuine. I have been on sites that had anonymous downvoting and the false accusations of who was behind it were astounding. Nothing good came of it. You may be able to see one person abusing the feature, but are you confident that a group of like minded people aren't abusing it, especially on political posts? You have got to know how ugly politics get here...

[quote]
The difference between the functionality of Mute User and the Downvote is that a Mute will completely hide ALL posts of a specific user on your feed (and only your feed).

As for the Downvote, if the amount of [valid/legit] downvotes surpass the amount of good reactions, then that post will be pushed down to everyone, because it's obviously not a good post/comment.
[/quote]

The thing is, if I want to mute or block someone, that is my right. Who I may choose to mute/block, there are so many others who want to see that users content.

I may want to see the posts/comments that are being pushed down. Just because some may not like that content and choose to downvote it, does not mean that I do not want to view it. 🤷

Downvote feature: I don't get the motivation behind it. 😐
It's apparent that almost all user reactions are strongly negative, up to the point where people consider leaving the site; and these reactions come from longtime, loyal, active users (of which I hope I'm one). There may or may not be a "silent majority" which approve of the new feature; this we don't know, and I find "silent majorities" rather scary anyway.
Why do the admins so strongly insist on a feature that's almost universally disapproved of?? What's the point? Why don't you simply sack it? I'd feel better if I understood. 😕

You still haven't taken into account the very strong possibility of groups of like-minded users down-voting truthful and sensible posts because of their foolish indoctrination. If I post something factual regarding politics or religion it's then entirely possible that multiple users raised to interpret actual truth as an attack on their beliefs will down-vote the same post.

I still don't like the basic idea of the downvote, and I have no intention of ever using it.
It's not about reputation, it's about giving one user ammunition to hurt another.
As I've said before, a downvote/dislike button does not belong on a support site.
The reputation that is suffering from this feature is your own. I am not alone in being disappointed with the admins for even considering the use of it.

I already talked about what I don't like concerning the downvote. Specifically because I did suspect downvoted threads move down in visibility for everyone and not just the downvoter.

And because the downvote is visible in threads. Also most things have already been pointed out by others here.

I am guessing the alt troll account suspended yesterday was the one abusing the downvote.

An account which I flagged weeks ago for instigating disagreements and harassing members.Hopefully their main was also suspended because it's members like that which are making the downvote option function like an extra tool to harass others open about who they are. Others who aren't using this platform for jokes strictly.

Sending those offenders a notification about breaking the TOS isn't enough in my view when they abuse the downvote.

I've had religious threats of Allah killing me or whatever
My sexuality shamed, being called S, W..words..
My past abuse used against me, again and again..

By alt accounts and in the main openly, identifying me specifically by name. Rendering the block button useless. Many were warned and given more chances to be here even after the suspension.

And that didn't stop them. Almost every time my name is mentioned, there has to be someone lying or saying something completely outragous and disgusting about me.

With that type of members, I don't trust the downvote.

Maybe in a different community where people were mature and responsible, and capable of moving on after disagreements I'd have done so.

I still do not like it.

I do not want posts and comments to be pushed to the bottom just because other people don't like them. I expect that to happen to many unpopular political opinions. If downvoting were only a matter of what [i]I[/i] see, then muting and blocking is adequate. People will receive downvotes for being unpopular, not solely for being "troublemakers". And we have the report button to take care of them.

It's a superfluous feature that, to me, makes the experience here worse.

So if Republicans post that they do not approve of the Biden administration or if Democrats post that they did not approve of the Trump administration and in either case they get a bunch of "downvotes" it leads to the poster being sanctioned by the website. Am I the ony one who sees a problem with that?

I appreciate your work but I'm still not in agreement.

It looks like you guys have been working hard to make sure the algorithm is fair and avoids pitfalls. You clearly care about the work and listen to user concerns.

However, I still don't see how the benefits of the downvote option outweigh the negatives. I struggle to see the benefits of the downvote anyway tbh.

Some new ideas look great on paper but don't work out in practice. I appreciate that you are trying to add something to the user experience. You obviously have the best of intentions but I (and I think most users) politely disagree.

You just want to ban me😤😤😤

Not gonna happen guys

If you see that the majority hates it, why can't it be removed.
It doesn't feel like we're being listened to at all...

Won't this discourage debate by penalizing controversial posts?

If you are constantly listening to suggestions why is the downvote still in use?

When someone tells you not to worry, you better start worrying... This project and the posts from SW administration remind me of what happened in countries that embraced communism.. So I'm sure they are waiting for trolls to down me and then termination.... They will turn people in to snitches...

Why not make the downvotes like the hearts or other reactions? No need to have some sort of consequence attached for saying something someone else disagrees with. The other person disagrees or holds a different opinion. If said person was that upset they have the option of blocking and if I see someone is constantly downvoting my posts I have the option of blocking too. No need for the admins to get involved at all.

This so called enhancement is far from that. It is a tool which even as described how it will be used that will allow censorship, bullying, favoritism, subject control, the list goes on.

There are already more than enough tools for the evil doers to do all that. We should all demand that admins change policies to avoid that insidious behavior instead of encouraging more.

Thanks for giving a voice to a bunch of cowardly passive aggressive jackasses.

Sounds like a popularity contest to be honest. A lot of people hate un-popular opinions.

Down vote = bullshit and trolls paradise in my opinion