@Convivial SORRY this is long. That was a cool example, but I failed to see what's so unique about that when chameleons can change their color at will, and at any given time. That doesn't prove Evolution to me.
I realize many don't believe one can prove God exists, however I have my own proof and experience with God, but yes, that would involves faith, in order for any to accept that. That's because we're not dealing with the physical realm, like here, but the spiritual realm, and spiritual laws apply a lot differently, than here. If you said you had seen a miracle, but I never have, it would not be fair for me to judge you, just because I didn't have the same experience. And no I'm not saying you judge me. Not at all. I guess I'm just saying that just because some have not experienced what I did, they can't really say I dreamed it up, I'm delusional, fanciful, or lying. With all my experience these 50 years fellowshipping with God, there's not one speck of doubt that God is real, alive today, and definitely works miracles. Did you ever read my story about how God gave my daughter a miracle and saved her from dying? This is a testimony where some try to deny it happened, but given the proof from records, pictures, Etc, even from the doctors were convinced she got a miracle because a forty year old lady who has anorexia and only weighs 85 lbs, and her kidneys and other organs were shutting down, does not automatically get healed in a matter of seconds. That's why God sometimes waits till the very last minute to show us a miracle, so that no one can mistake nor deny it could only have come from God, or say "oh this was just a coincidence...the doctors made a mistake...she was probably already getting better....they misdiagnosed her and all the other garbage people who do not want to believe nor acknowledge God is real, drum up. Anything to try and disprove that God is real and he is a miracle worker. The doctors had told her she would be dead in a [b]week[/b]. I happen to have a family who believes in prayer and miracles and so though all looked hopeless, we prayed and believed we would get our miracle and our faith paid off, as it has other times as well, and I really hate it when people get sarcastic and say dumb things like "Well aren't you special? You're so special that God shows you special favor." I'm no more special than anyone else. Anyone else can have the same experience as I did, if that's what they want and are willing to trust God. God doesn't want love one above the other. He came for all. Yet common sense tells us, that if we want nothing to do with God until we want something from him and treat him disrespectfully like our personal "Genie in the sky", who's here to wait on us and do everything we command him to do at will, get our wish, then go right back to the same sinful lifestyle, that just won't cut it. God will not be mocked. God's mission was not so he could spoil, or serve us. After all he has done for us, he deserves for us to love and serve him, in gratitude and thanksgiving. Attitude and motives means everything. When we believe and exercise our faith, that's something God can work with and bless us.
I don't care who says it, there's no way a person like her could suddenly just pop up out of their hospital bed after losing all that weight and she's weak and went down to 85 lbs from about 150 lbs, and get up and walk just like nothing happened. That's just not possible. She was healed instantly, went home, never had another problem, and is still perfect today. God does these things. He loves and enjoys doing things for people and helping them. He is indeed a miracle worker and no other person could have done that for her, but Jesus. The doctors who witnessed it were just shocked to pieces. Now they believed in God and miracles.
This is why God doesn't have to prove himself to anyone. He already did that over 2,000 years ago and they still wouldn't believe, even when proof stood before them, face to face. People don't need proof. They need faith! Jesus said, "Oh ye, of little faith! You have not because you ask not, in faith." Jesus could give people all the proof in the world today and they would STILL deny him and snub his face. Below, is why my faith is so strong and firm. He lives in my heart and life, but not only because I have believed and received, because even if I had not seen any miracles, I know He lives, as when He sent his Holy Spirit to live in me, as promised, after I had accepted him as my Lord and Savior, there was no denying that I had received the Holy Spirit, who helps me and teaches me each day.... available to anyone on this Earth who wishes to have a relationship, not religion, with Jesus. Not one, can tell me there's no God and that he's not alive. Like me, if that's what they believe, then prove it!
[center][b][c=BF0000]THEN MY JESUS STEPPED IN[/c][/b][/center]
Yeah we know it is there. We can see the effects in different ways. The same can be applied to God. When his mission was over with here he went back to his father in heaven and so that's why it takes Faith now in the Bible says we walk by faith not by sight. So just because we can't see things, and think how many microorganisms and things that are so small and finite that we would never ever be able to see them if we tried, yet they are still very real. Just like the Flora in our colon. We can't see it yet we reap the benefits of it helping with digestion and keeping our colon clean, etc. It is very real and so is God.
[quote]If we evolved from apes or gorillas, then all gorillas should be able to speak like we do. And our limbs should be exactly the same length as gorillas [/quote]
Oh so here we have a real opportunity to learn and perhaps correct some of the misconceptions responsible for your rather inaccurate characterization of evolution. First i'll make the minor correction that evolution does not hold that humans evolved from gorillas but rather that humans and gorillas diverged from a common ancestor.
Answer this question for me, if you would be so kind:
Based on what you understand about evolution, why do you think that if humans and gorillas share a common evolutionary ancestor that gorillas should also be able to speak? Why do you think our limbs should be the same as their limbs? With the understanding that evolution is decent with [i]modification[/i] why do you conclude that either of those circumstances are the necessary results of shared evolutionary ancestry?
[quote]Now tell me what the chances of that are and can't you see how ridiculous that sounds. [/quote]
I won't. Because what you've described is a straw man representation of how science understands the universe and life to have developed.
To put it in perspective, what you've just described is the same as me describing Christianity as god messing up creation so that humans were inherently sinful and then he had to sacrifice himself to himself to create a loophole in the rules he made so that he could then forgive people. Now you wouldn't consider that a fair or accurate description of Christianity, would you? Of course not. So please don't characterize a materialist genesis of the universe in the same uncharitable fashion.
@Pikachu well I'm just saying that's exactly how ridiculous your concept of evolution sounds. And my understanding was taken from many unbelievers who have said the same thing and that's why I use them as an example. Not to be rude but your examples sound just as ridiculous to me as mine do to you hahaha only difference is I can prove mine are correct about my beliefs because they match up with God's word and he is no liar but of course to you who does not believe in God, that cannot be applied. But that does not mean that mine are incorrect. Like I said at least I have God's word to back it up, though you don't believe it. My beliefs do not have to match up with yours in order for mine to be authentic.
Mine is not a strong man representation. It is a common sense representation. You cannot tell me that you actually believe that meteorites etc clash together and formed the Earth and then in orderly manner, created the oceans and then man, come on. And I don't mean that sarcastically but that sounds like something a kid would say. That only begs to ask who made all these meteorites etc or whatever you want to call them in outer space that made the Earth and people in the whole works? Rocks don't have a brain, nor can they put things in order and the universe drastically demonstrates that there was an order about things and that concludes intelligence, not from rocks that God himself made.
If you're going to conclude and this is what I have heard unbelievers say, humans evolved from certain primates, whether it's a gorilla or ape or whatever, but if you're going to say we evolved from them and we can see that the chart shows the sequence until the 8th supposedly stood straight up like man, if that is true, then we can only conclude that our skeletal frame should match that of the primate we came from according to evolutionists. We should not be able to stand straight up and even for example sake, apes or gorillas do not have a comparable frame to the gorilla or ape.
I'm looking at a very small screen on my phone here. And I'm seeing questions that I didn't even get a chance to answer yet and evolution is way too broad a subject to get into I mean that could be discussed for ages and I'm not willing to get that tied down and heavy with that. And though I'm not as knowledgeable as you are on the subject of evolution I have the basic understanding but I cannot go as deep into it as you do and I don't even think that's necessary. The point is we disagree on evolution. I would rather discuss something that I feel comfortable in. I mean there's plenty of other things we can discuss and compare in or beliefs. But I will say that I believe in creation because my Bible tells me so and I know that doesn't sound like very concrete evidence to you but then we are comparing the physical realm with the spiritual and they were not meant to match and they don't match. The principles and laws that hold true in the physical realm are a lot different from those in the spiritual realm and you cannot mix the two, however I have not had any sleep for about 3 days straight and I'm not thinking at peak capacity hahaha so I will put this on pause until I can actually function properly. Haha but it was fun.
I don't demand that you abandon your position, i just insist that you correctly understand what you are arguing against.
Evolution is directly observable in the laboratory as life changing over subsequent generations. So if humans and gorillas sprang from the same ape ancestor but began changing in different ways in different populations...why would you expect modern humans and modern gorillas to still be the same?
Perhaps it would be useful for you to tell me in basic terms how you understand the process of evolution to function.
We don't have to get deep into evolution but i would discourage you from shying away from discussing it on the basis that you feel your understanding of it is shaky. That is [i]exactly[/i] the sort of subject you should be exposing yourself to, otherwise how would you ever expect to become more knowledgeable in that area?
There are certainly many subjects we can discuss but in this thread we are discussing evolution. You are under no obligation to stay in this thread but as long as you do, that's the subject. So get some rest and if you feel so inclined, come back and discuss this subject again when you're feeling refreshed.
[quote]You cannot tell me that you actually believe that meteorites etc clash together and formed the Earth and then in orderly manner, created the oceans and then man, come on.[/quote]
lol no, i cannot tell you that because that is not what i believe. That is what makes your characterization a straw man. A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person’s argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making.
@Pikachu or just because you don't like my examples. I may not like your examples but they are true to you. And this thing you just wrote to me:
those examples are only evident if one has already accepted the belief structure
That looks like nonsense to me because it's you making the rules for me and they don't apply at all. They are nonsensical. What kind of business is that that those examples are only evident if one has already accepted the belief structure. That makes no sense at all because the same things I see as a Christian are also the same things any unbeliever could acknowledge without even thinking of a spiritual connection. What that tells me is you want to make the rules but when I specifically show you a scripture that could be taken no other way, then all of a sudden oh you can't use that. I can use that and it's perfectly valid. You just can't set the rules for me. I can think for myself and have the same rights you have. And what I don't understand is that you can use any example or book you like to prove your point but when I use God's word to prove my point and back it up, then it's not acceptable. That's baloney. Not fair at all and you just can't make the rules for me. If you are allowed to use an example you like then so can I. This is just an excuse that some use because they don't believe or want to believe in God or salvation and so they concur that it's okay for them to make the rules but let me try to prove something and it's always wrong. That that proves to me that this person doesn't want to know or learn about God. It amazes me that I can show a verse of scripture that clearly could have no other explanation and is simple as pie, yet someone else will look at that and say oh that's not true when it's right before they're very eyes and could not possibly be misinterpreted to mean something else. That, to me, signals double-mindedness and double standards. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. And I think when it comes to Bible study we should be able to use anything we like as an example without examining why we can't use that particular example and instead, discuss the thought and it would be interesting to see what we come up with then. I don't need my Bible to confirm my beliefs. The in other words that Bible doesn't mean the difference between believing or not believing because I'm saying that my faith and beliefs are firm. In other words I know not only what I believe, but more importantly why I believe it. My convictions are in my heart and life so I don't necessarily need to prove myself with just one tool. There were those in the days before Jesus was born, where the prophets of old preached revealed their dreams from God and they didn't even have a Bible back then. Yet they had faith and not only that they had great faith.
I'm not trying to set rules for you. I'm delineating between what is objective and measurable vs what is subjective and faith based.
What example would you give me of god's handiwork that is undeniably recognizable as such even if someone doesn't believe in god?
What objection do you have to the notion of objective, testable, predictive observation as being different than a faith claim? This is a point i tried to illustrate with my question about Muslims and miracles. Because they have every bit the same conviction in their beliefs that you do and they believe that they see miracles as well in response to their prayers. So are they receiving Miracles from Allah? Or in your opinion are they mistaken about that?
@LadyGrace I'll try to answer your question to the best of my ability... One example of seeing reception at work was a species of moth in England that during the industrial revolution changed to a darker shade of colouration to match the coal induced grime the that covered everything.
I don't believe you can"Prove" God exists, you have to take it on faith as no proof does exist
I Usually hit a person with examples of micro evolution of plants and animals that are easily observable and well known that people cannot deny. Then I take them somewhere with extensive fossil and skeleton records and show them what people have unearthed. A famous example is the Plobelesodon: an intermediate between reptiles and mammals.
From there people general either accept that maybe the creation story they were told maybe isn't entirely literal. They usually feel rather shaky and immediately want the comfort of a pastor or priest saying that the evidence is all wrong.
Some others double down and start making wild assumptions that God or Satan scattered fossils and bones around for fun or to trip us up. And we should still believe that the earth is less then 10000 years old.
Then some seem to make evolution and their faith make sense together.
That's not a bad way to do it, really. Show them in ways they don't disagree with that life changes over time and with subsequent generations. Then ask them how they draw the line where life can change this much and no more.
@Scribbles if I may interject here a little bit, I feel your first example about some folding when you start asking them questions. If they're on shaky ground that tells me they're not sure about what they believe and they have not studied the word so they're a little shaky when people ask them questions. This is why it's not only important to know what you believe, but more importantly, why you believe it. Then you're on solid ground and cannot be influenced by every wind of doctrine.
Call it the bias of the need of personal witness, the nonsense of "common sense", the ballast of "philosophic" dualism, the blindness of a "logos" based rationalism and a quite poor understanding of probabilities (and of the nature of math and of logic as a branch of it). All of them are also present in an almost still Ptolemaic view of the world, terraplanism and vitalism.
No objection to each one´s believes, as long they don´t pretend them to have any validation in Science, of course.
By the way the above haves no needed relation to atheism vs faith debates
SW-User
What we need is easy to believe things, like the god of the bible, now there's ease!!!
