Update
Only logged in members can reply and interact with the post.
Join SimilarWorlds for FREE »

Was Jesus God?

A Response To The Skeptic's Annotated Bible (SAB) - Is Jesus God?

This response addresses the fact that Jesus was a god just as Moses and other men were gods, though not to be confused with Jehovah God.

The trinity is a Babylonian teaching common in the pagan religions. It was adopted by apostate Christianity 400 years after Christ. John 1:1 is used by those who believe in the trinity, in fact it seems that the verse is intentionally corrupted in order to support the trinity.

At John 1:1 the Greek theos is what is called an anarthrous theos. There are many cases of a singular anarthrous predicate noun preceding the verb, such as in Mark 6:49; 11:32; John 4:19; 6:70; 8:44; 9:17; 10:1, 13, 33; 12:6. Where "a" or "an" is inserted "an apparition" or "a spirit" or "a liar" or "a prophet" or "a god."

In the article "Qualitative Anarthrous Predicate Nouns: Mark 15:39 and John 1:1," published in the Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92, Philadelphia, 1973, p. 85, Philip B. Harner said about John 1:1: "with an anarthrous predicate preceding the verb, are primarily qualitative in meaning. They indicate that the logos has the nature of theos. There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite." On p. 87 of his article, Harner concluded: "In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite."

In other words Jesus was a god, which is completely in harmony with scripture. Jesus was prophetically called a mighty god (Hebrew El Gibbohr) at Isaiah 9:6.

John 1:14 - "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Jesus was the word, or spokesperson, of Jehovah God. He existed in heaven in spirit form before he came to earth. (John 3:13; 6:51; 17:5)

John 8:58 - "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

A Grammar of the Idiom of the New Testament, by G. B. Winer, seventh edition, Andover, 1897, p. 267, says: "Sometimes the Present includes also a past tense (Mdv. 108), viz. when the verb expresses a state which commenced at an earlier period but still continues, a state in its duration; as, Jno. xv. 27 aparkhes met emou este], viii. 58 prin Abraam genesthai ego eimi."

A Grammar of New Testament Greek, by J. H. Moulton, Vol. III, by Nigel Turner, Edinburgh, 1963, p. 62, says: "The Present which indicates the continuance of an action during the past and up to the moment of speaking is virtually the same as Perfective, the only difference being that the action is conceived as still in progress . . . It is frequent in the N[ew] T[estament]: Lk 248 137 . . . 1529 . . . Jn 56 858 . . . "

Before Abraham came into existence is the first person singular present indicative and so properly translated with the perfect indicative. So from the fourth/fifth century the Syriac edition translates John 8:58 as "before Abraham was, I have been." (A Translation of the Four Gospels from the Syriac of the Sinaitic Palimpsest, by Agnes Smith Lewis, London, 1894.

From the fifth century the Curetonian Syriac Edition translates "before ever Abraham came to be, I was." (The Curetonian Version of the Four Gospels, by F. Crawford Burkitt, Vol. 1, Cambridge, England, 1904)

The Syriac Peshitta Edition, The Old Georgian Version, also from the fifth century and the Ethiopic Edition of the sixth century all do the same.

In an attempt to confuse Jesus as Jehovah some suggest that ego eimi is the same as the Hebrew expression ani hu, "I am he," which is used by God, but it is also used by man. (1 Chronicles 21:17)

Others try and use the Septuagint's reading of Exodus 3:14 which reads Ego eimi ho on meaning "I am The Being," or "I am The Existing One" which can't be sustained because the expression at Exodus 3:14 is different than John 8:58.

At Exodus 3:14 the Hebrew Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh "I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be" is God's self designation. Leeser reads "I will be that I will be;" Rotherham reads "I Will Become whatsoever I please." Latin ego sum qui sum "I am Who I am." Ehyeh comes from a verb hayah which means to "become; prove to be" and at 3:14 is in the imperfect state, first person singular meaning "I shall become" or "I shall prove to be." It isn't a comment on God's self existence but a statement about what he intends to become towards others.

John 10:30-31 - "I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him."

Novatian (c. 200-258 C.E.) wrote: "Since He said 'one' thing, let the heretics understand that He did not say 'one' person. For one placed in the neuter, intimates the social concord, not the personal unity. . . . Moreover, that He says one, has reference to the agreement, and to the identity of judgment, and to the loving association itself, as reasonably the Father and Son are one in agreement, in love, and in affection." - Treatise Concerning the Trinity, chapter 27.

What Havatian meant is that the word for "one" in the verse is in the neuter gender. So its actual meaning is "one thing." John 17:21 uses the exact same syntax. This would mean that if Jesus and the Father were one in as the same one in the same then those to whom Jesus spoke of at John 17:21 were God as well.

John 10:38-39 - "The Father is in me, and I in him. Therefore they sought again to take him."

The Catholic Jerusalem Bible reads: "Jesus said to them, 'I have done many good works for you to see, works from my Father; for which of these are you stoning me?' The Jews answered him, 'We are not stoning you for doing a good work but for blasphemy: you are only a man and you claim to be God'. Jesus answered: 'Is it not written in your Law: I said, you are gods? So the Law uses the word gods of those to whom the word of God was addressed, and scripture cannot be rejected. Yet you say to someone the Father has consecrated and sent into the world, "You are blaspheming", because he says, "I am the Son of God". If I am not doing my Father's work, there is no need to believe me; but if I am doing it, then even if you refuse to believe in me, at least believe in the work I do; then you will know for sure that the Father is in me and I am in the Father'" - John 10:32-38

Notice that Jesus wasn't claiming to be the God, the Father or even be equal but rather the Son of God.

John 14:9 - "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father."

Jesus wasn't saying that he was God, so that anyone seeing him would be seeing God. For no man has seen God. Jesus was the image of as well as the representative of God. (Genesis 1:26 / Exodus 33:20 / John 1:1, 18 / Colossians 1:15)

John 20:28 - "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God."

A god is anything that anyone attributes might or venerates. The Bible calls Moses, Jesus, the judges of Israel, Tammuz - all mortal men who are called gods. It also calls angels, including Satan and Michael as gods. Also pagan Gods like Dagon, Molech, Baal, Bel, Astarte. Carved idols. The dictionary definition agrees.

Atheists don't agree because they are influenced by the apostate and uninformed teachings of Christianity and because, really, the very definition of atheism is a belief that there are no gods, and if anything, whether or not it exists, can be a god, that makes their position sort of silly and obviously influenced by the inaccurate teachings of modern day Christianity.

The very Hebrew word translated god is El and various forms of El (Elohim for example, applied to Jehovah, men and pagan gods and goddesses) which means simply "mighty" or "strong one." It is a similar title as Lord, which usually signifies authority over something or someone. Land lord, for example. God father.

As indicated earlier in this response the scriptures teach that Jesus, like other men, are gods, but not that he is the same as Jehovah God. This is evident only three verses after the Thomas account given where John writes that these things were written down so that we would believe that Jesus was the Christ, Son of God. Not that he was God. (Isaiah 9:6 / John 1:18; 20:30)

Acts 20:28 - "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

The Jerusalem Bible, Douay, and NAB all use similar wording in translation of Acts 20:28. The NWT and TEV reads to the effect of "the blood of his own [Son."] The RS 1953 reads "with his own blood," but the 1971 edition reads "with the blood of his own son."

J. H. Moulton in A Grammar of New Testament Greek, Vol. 1 (Prolegomena), 1930 ed., p. 90, says: "Before leaving idios something should be said about the use of ho idios without a noun expressed. This occurs in Jn 1:11 1:31, Ac 4:23; 24:23. In the papyri we find the singular used thus as a term of endearment to near relations . . . . In Expos. VI. iii. 277 I ventured to cite this as a possible encouragement to those (including B. Weiss) who would translate Acts 20:28 'the blood of one who was his own.'"

The New Testament in the Original Greek, by Westcott and Hort, Vol., 2, London, 1881, pp. 99, 100 of the Appendix, Hort stated: "it is by no means impossible that huiou, "of the Son" [dropped out after tou idiou, "of his own"] at some very early transcription affecting all existing documents. Its insertion leaves the whole passage free from difficulty of any kind."

The KJV and others are not grammatically incorrect in the way they translate "with his own blood." However the Codex Alexandrinus, Codex Ephraemi rescriptus (5th century), Bezae Codices (Greek and Latin 5th / 6th Century) and the Philozenian-Harclean Syriac Version (6th / 7th century) and thus Moffat's translation all contain a marginal reading of "the congregation of the Lord" instead of "the congregation of God" to avoid confusion. The Codex Sinaiticus (4th century) Vatican ms 1209 (4th century) and Latin Vulgate all read God (articulate) and so translate 'God's blood."

With the Greek tou idiou which follows the phrase "with the blood" the expression conveys the notion that it was "with the blood of his own." The noun in the singular being God's closest relative, his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:16 - "For by him [Jesus] were all things created."

This text speaks nothing of Jesus as being God or being equal to Jehovah God, it is in harmony with scripture in that Jesus was the master worker of God. (Proverbs 8:27-30 / John 1:3)

Colossians 2:9 - "For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

From the Greek theotetos and Latin divinitatis comes the term "godhead" or "divine quality," "godship."

2 Peter 1:4 uses the same "divine quality" or "godship" in application to the first century Christians he was addressing. Just as the Christian can be of "divine nature" through the decision of God and not being God or being equal to God so was Jesus. (Colossians 2:9)

1 Timothy 3:16 - "God was made manifest in the flesh."

The sacred secret of the ages which Jesus revealed was that mankind could live in perfect obedience to Jehovah God's sovereignty. Jesus demonstrated that he could do what Adam chose not to do.

There is an interesting story behind 1 Timothy 3:16 and the KJV.

Kyrillos Loukaris, a patriarch of Alexandria Egypt was a great collector of books and in 1621, while in Constantinople, Turkey, he took the Codex Alexandrius there. The unrest in the Middle East and the possibility that it might be destroyed by Muslims provoked him to give it to the British ambassador in Turkey as a gift for King James I in 1624. King James died and it was given instead to King Charles I three years later.

The Alexandrian Codex, mentioned earlier in this response, was one of the first major Bible manuscripts accessible to scholars so its discovery was instrumental in constructive criticism of the Greek Bibles.

Since it dated back to the 5th century C.E. and several scribes shared in its writing it had corrected text throughout. The scribes did something unusual and important when gathering together readings from different families or exemplars, whereas other scribes would usually stick to one family. It was an older and better manuscript than any of those used in the making of the KJV of 1611.

Its reading of 1 Timothy 3:16 caused a great deal of controversy because the KJV read "God was manifest in the flesh." The Alexandria Codex though, indicated that the contraction for "God" which was formed by two Greek letters, appeared to have originally read the almost identical "OC" which was the word for "who." Thus Christ Jesus was not "God." Over the next 200 years the discovery of other older manuscripts would confirm this.

Bruce M. Metzger in his Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament concludes: "No uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century . . . supports theos; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading theos."

Titus 2:13 - "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."

The Riverside New Testament, 1934 - "of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus"

A New Translation of the Bible, by James Moffat, 1935 - "of the great God and of our Saviour Christ Jesus"

New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, 1950 - "of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus"

La Sainte Bible, by Louis Segond, 1957 - "of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ"

The New American Bible, 1970 - "of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus"

The New Testament in Modern English, 1972 - "of the great God and of Christ Jesus our saviour"

From the Greek tou megalou Theou kai soteros hemon Khristou Iesou. The text presents no difficulty in the distinction of two separate people; Jehovah God and Christ Jesus. The Authorship of the Fourth Gospel and Other Critical Essays, by Ezra Abbot, Boston, 1888, p. 452: "Take an example from the New Testament. In Matt. xxi. 12 we read that Jesus 'cast out all those that were selling and buying in the temple, tous polountas kai agorazontas. No one can reasonably suppose that the same persons are here described as both selling and buying. In Mark the two classes are made distinct by the insertion of tous before agorazontas; here it is safely left to the intelligence of the reader to distinguish them. In the case before us [Tit 2:13], the omission of the article before soteros seems to me to present no difficulty, not because soteros is made sufficiently definite by the addition of hemon (Winer), for, since God as well as Christ is often called "our Saviour," he doxa tou megalou Theou kai soteros hemon, standing alone, would most naturally be understood of one subject, namely, God, the Father; but the addition of Iesou Khristou to soteros hemon changes the case entirely, restricting the soteros hemon to a person or being who, according to Paul's habitual use of language, is distinguished from the person or being whom he designates as ho Theos, so that there was no need of the repetition of the article to prevent ambiguity. So in 2 Thess. i. 12, the expression kata ten kharin tou Theou hemon kai kyriou would naturally be understood of one subject, and the article would be required before kyriou if two were intended; but the simple addition of Iesou Khristou to kyriou makes the reference to the two distinct subjects clear without the insertion of the article."

Philippians 2:6 - "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."

The KJV and Douay both read the passage similar, but the Jerusalem Bible reads: "he did not cling to his equality with God." The RS, NE, TEV and NAB all read similar to the NWT which reads: "who, although he was existing in God's form, gave no consideration to a seizure (Greek harpagmon), namely, that he should be equal to God."

The text is encouraging Christians to imitate Christ, obviously by not thinking of themselves as equal to God. Otherwise the text would be encouraging them to imitate Christ in being equal with God, which of course, it doesn't. (Mark 10:18)

The Expositor's Greek Testament: "We cannot find any passage where harpazo or any of its derivatives including harpagmon has the sense of 'holding in possession,' 'retaining'. It seems invariably to mean 'seize,' 'snatch violently'. Thus it is not permissible to glide from the true sense 'grasp at' into one which is totally different, 'hold fast.'" - (Grand Rapids, Mich.; 1967), edited by W. Robertson Nicoll, Vol. III, pp. 436, 437.

Hebrews 1:8 - "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

The RS, NE, TEV, Dy, JB, NAB all read similar to the KJV. The AT, Mo, TC all read similar to the NWT, which reads; "But with reference to the Son: 'God is your throne forever and ever." The passage is quoting Psalm 45:6-7 which is directed at a human king.

B. F. Westcott states: "The LXX [Septuagint] admits of two renderings: ho theos can be taken as a vocative in both cases (Thy throne, O God, . . . therefore, O God, Thy God . . . ) or it can be taken as the subject (or the predicate) in the first case (God is Thy throne, or Thy throne is God . . . ), and in apposition to [ho theos sou] in the second case (Therefore God, even Thy God . . . ). . . . It is scarcely possible that Elohim in the original can be addressed to the king. The presumption therefore is against the belief that ho theos is a vocative in the LXX. Thus on the whole it seems best to adopt in the first clause the rendering: God is Thy throne (or, Thy throne is God), that is 'Thy kingdom is founded upon God, the immovable Rock.'" - The Epistle to the Hebrews (London, 1889), pp. 25, 26.

Revelation 1:17 - "Fear not; I am the first and the last."

Revelation 22:13 - "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

Both verses listed here from Revelation are in reference to Jehovah God rather than Jesus Christ.
Jaego · 100+
If Jesus is god, who was Jesus praying to?
Mathers · 61-69
Thomas fell down Jesus’s feet and said my Lord and my God and Jesus said you have now believed Thomas. You obviously haven’t@BibleData
BibleData · M
@Mathers
Thomas fell down Jesus’s feet and said my Lord and my God and Jesus said you have now believed Thomas.

Indeed. Nothing wrong with that. What was Jesus's God's name?
Mathers · 61-69
The name of Tomas’ God was Jaweh @BibleData
Budwick · 70-79, M
Was Jesus God?


Yes - and He still is!
@Budwick lord of lords and king of kings!
Carazaa · F
Here Jesus alone can forgive your sins. Listen carefully to what he says and then what he did to prove it. This story settles the question for good, Yes Jesus IS GOD!

MARK 2


5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming!Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

8 Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? 9 Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’? 10 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man, 11 “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” 12 He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this!”

Jesus Calls Levi and Eats With Sinners
13 Once again Jesus went out beside the lake. A large crowd came to him, and he began to teach them. 14 As he walked along, he saw Levi son of Alphaeus sitting at the tax collector’s booth. “Follow me,” Jesus told him, and Levi got up and followed him.

15 While Jesus was having dinner at Levi’s house, many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. 16 When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Jesus Questioned About Fasting
18 Now John’s disciples and the Pharisees were fasting. Some people came and asked Jesus, “How is it that John’s disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees are fasting, but yours are not?”

19 Jesus answered, “How can the guests of the bridegroom fast while he is with them? They cannot, so long as they have him with them. 20 But the time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them, and on that day they will fast.

21 “No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. Otherwise, the new piece will pull away from the old, making the tear worse. 22 And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins.”

Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath
23 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

25 He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”


REVELATION 19

“Hallelujah!
For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
7 Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.

8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear.”

9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”
RuyLopez · 56-60, M
Some Christians do not believe in the Trinitarian Godhead. Some believe the God, The Holy Ghost and Christ were all the same being rather than three separate entities. In the sense that a person is one being but has different roles to play as child, husband, and father. The concept of the Trinity is one of the major reasons why Muslims believe Catholicism and Christianity in general is a pagan religion.
Pfuzylogic · M
@BibleData
Michael created nothing but was created.
BibleData · M
@Pfuzylogic
Michael created nothing but was created.

Jesus was Michael. God's firstborn only begotten son. He came from heaven in spirit form to be born Jesus the man in physical form.

https://semmelweisreflex.com/scripture/sab/topics/29.php
Pfuzylogic · M
@BibleData
That could be a religion besides Christianity.
Michael means “Who is like God?!”
SW-User
"In every particular is the universal" (an insight found throughout our world's faith traditions) In that sense Jesus was God.

The implication of "In every particular is the universal" is that the revelation of God's love can be found anywhere, anytime, anyplace, according to the uniqueness of every individual human being (i.e. every particular)

A catholic scholar, Heinrich Dumoulin, has written.....

Whether, on its deepest ground, being is personal or impersonal, is something that humans will never be able to plumb by their rational powers. Here we face a decision which one makes according to one's own tradition and upbringing, and still more according to one's faith and experience. The Christian sees ultimate reality revealed in the personal love of God as shown in Christ, the Buddhist in the silence of the Buddha. Yet they agree on two things: that the ultimate mystery is ineffable, and that it should be manifest to human beings. The inscription on a Chinese stone figure of the Buddha, dated 746, reads:-

"The Highest truth is without image.
If there were no image at all, however, there would be no way for truth to be manifested.
The highest principle is without words.
But if there were not words at all, how could principle possibly be revealed?"


Therefore there must be "images" and "words". Sadly, they tend to divide us.

Let us walk with those such as James Joyce....


Walk with his creation.........Molly Bloom, who said "YES" to life in all its particulars.
Carazaa · F
REVELATION 22

“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”

Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.
BibleData · M
@Carazaa I don't understand why you use the scriptures you use. Perhaps you could explain how you interpret Revelation 22 and why? It doesn't seem to say anything about Jesus being God.

Various people speak throughout the book of Revelation. The Alpha and Omega is always Jehovah, not Jesus.
BibleData · M
@LordShadowfire
Ooooh, are we once again saying that quotes from books are evidence? Because I've got rock solid evidence for the existence of Batman.

The Bible is evidence of what the Bible says about God, Jehovah and his son, Jesus Christ.
Carazaa · F
@BibleData Revelation 22 is Jesus own words. I am coming soon and my reward is with me. Whoever adds to these words I will add the plagues of this book (hell) and whoever takes away from this book I will take away the rewards of this book (heaven)
not sure that the trinity of Babylon is the original source of this Christian dogma

yahooooo...

Savitri - Agni - Vayu (one of the ancient Indian trinity).

Brahma - Vishnu - Shiva (one of the ancient Indian trinity).

Anu - Bel - Ea (one of the Babylonian trinity).

Sin - Shamash - Ishtar (one of the Babylonian trinity).

Ea - Damkina - Tammuz (one of the Babylonian trinity).

Amon-Ra - Mut (Nut) - Honsu (one of the Egyptian trinity).

Ptah - Sokhmet - Nefertum (one of the Egyptian trinity).

Osiris Isis - Horus (one of the Egyptian trinity).

Sobek - Hathor - Khonsu (one of the Egyptian trinity).

Zeus - Poseidon - Hades (an ancient Greek trinity).

Odin - Thor - Freya (Scandinavian trinity).

Ukko - Ilmatar - Veinemeinen (Finnish trinity).
BibleData · M
@fakable Okay. Babylon came first.

Soon after the founding of the world - katabole as the ancient Greeks had called it - came the kingdoms of men with rivers of blood. This division was first created in the lifetime of a primitive forefather all but forgotten who was called Peleg. (Genesis 10:25) He lived in the time of the first of the kings of men, who was called the Sumerian Dumuzi, or Tammuz and Nimrod in the language of old. Nimrod founded Accad, Babel and Calneh in the land of Shinar. (Genesis 10:8-10; Ezekiel 8:14) From the tower the people scattered all over the Earth.

History became legend and legend became myth.

So, after the flood, Nimrod established his kingdom, including Babylon.

So, when was Adam created? 4026 BCE. The flood? 2370. Peleg lived from 2269-2030and the separation at the tower of Babel occurred there.

Moses started writing Genesis 1513.

So how many years did the myths of Tammuz, aka Nimrod, who's symbol was the first cross, the mystic tau, and other stories that were handed down from Bible times have to spread all over the globe? The flood. Giants, the cross etc. All that stuff comes from Babylon.
@BibleData

no

trimurti in vedas

"vedas were always been there since the creation of the universe"
@BibleData The Sumerians came before the Babylonians, and wasnt the flood of the Younger Dryas more like 10 500 BCE?
Also ...what about Gobekli Tepe ? - its dated as pre 9000 BCE.

I Think your dates may need reconsidering .

Different religious and ancient cultural texts can vary in dating our history. I mean, the Sumerian Kings List names 8 kings who ruled over a 241 000 year period ....and thats just one literal example. The vedas tell of a time 9000 years ago, which has been matched with geoarcheological and astrological charting of that era.

Not to mention, does it truly matter what Jesus is?
If one believes in the divine, in the oneness of the universal power and spiritual growth and enlightenment: isnt it more about your truth ?
Carazaa · F
YES JESUS IS GOD, He created the world! John 1
@Carazaa I think I self righteously lectured you about using other bible’s than the King James…………..or something like that……….
Carazaa · F
@puck61 Thank you! No worries!
Pfuzylogic · M
@BibleData
I did miss your response.
As far as the authorship of the Holy Bible there was absolutely no pagan influence.
As far as Jesus on the earth before his birth , there are at least two documented appearances in Genesis and Daniel.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
Your twisted theology is so twisted as to be a joke. Jesus said He was Yahweh. John explained that Jesus was The Thought of God. The Father being the Will of God and the Spirit being the Essence of God.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@BibleData your claims are self refuting to any kind ne who has experience. Flat earthers like you will remain oblivious and wrong
BibleData · M
@hippyjoe1955 Well, wrong again. I'm not a flat earther. "There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth.” (Isaiah 40:22)

My claims don't refute themselves and neither do you refute my claims. You're an ideologue. Not at all interested in Jehovah God. Just your fake imitation. Tradition.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@BibleData too funny. You're a man born blind telling a sighted man that rainbow don't exist..
i love your headlines. i always want to open and read the post.

i open it... i see a lot of words. i close it and wait for a new post.
BibleData · M
@fakable
the problem... what are you talking about? it's a private opinion on your posts.

get it?

No. I don't. If I were interested in a private opinion on my post the headline would read something like "What do you think of my post?"

It wouldn't have many words because it wouldn't need them. I could write many words on what I perceive to be wrong with my posts but I'm not interested. Yet here we are talking about that instead of what the post is about. Don't try to reason your way around all of that.

As it turned out I'm not interested in that subject.
@BibleData
you see, everything is fine. there is no problem.
BibleData · M
@fakable
you see, everything is fine. there is no problem.

Excellent! I'm glad we could clear that up. Keep me updated on the absence of any problems.

Except for I don't know what you think of the subjects.
Adstar · 56-60, M
Jesus is God...

Asking if Jesus was God is saying that Jesus is no more.. that He is dead..

If you want to deny that Jesus is God you should have asked the question

Is Jesus God..

But maybe the cult you belong to denies Jesus was raised from the dead and ascended into heaven too ??? I would not be surprised..
Adstar · 56-60, M
@BibleData I don't have to Prove Anything.. My LORD requiors me to share the Gospel to seekers and help them on the path to eternal life...

So when ever i read or hear someone telling me to prove it prove it prove it.. I mentaly walk..

I give those kinds of Pearls to genuine Seekers not anti-christs..
BibleData · M
@Adstar I didn't say you had to prove anything, I said you had to disprove quite a few things.
Adstar · 56-60, M
@BibleData To disprove one thing you have to prove another thing RIGHT... I know an incredible derived conclusion for me right.... Not for me..
Israel :
IS...Isis
RA....Ra
El....singular of Elohim.

Historically, trinities are a common product when polytheistic religions meet monotheistic ones.

Besides, do not your scriptures tell you we are all gods?
revenant · F
@OogieBoogie He said everything was vibration but I have yet to discover the real secret of 369😎

If the Egyptians really managed that to build pyramids..wow..

I do not talk about it much IRL...people think am totally loopy 😂
@revenant 😂...neither do i.
Everyone at work talks about football, gossip, and Facebook . If i even gave tjem a hint about what i think about they would prolly look at me like im mad🤦‍♀️
i know, coz i tried once, and all i got was blank incomprehensible looks🤷‍♀️.

Ever feel like you spend more time walking around your own mind than in reality coz its more interesting ?😏
revenant · F
@OogieBoogie oh yes..lol......serious and absorbed expression in the supermarket and wondering where on earth this name of the can of peas could have come from...

Positively certifiable 😊 but totally agree with you : lots of convos around are so boring and predictable...😌 there is only my son I know whose mind goes kind of crazy like mine.😊 He wants to discover the secret of the world and resume it in 2 words..
Jesus came to save HIS people. If you listen to His prayer in the garden, you can see that Christ came for the elect, and not for the whole world. Only those whom God had “given Him”.
Mathers · 61-69
That is not in the scriptures. It is a man made doctrine @puck61
@Mathers it’s quite clear. In Ephesians and revelation just for starters.
Mathers · 61-69
Yes but Ephesians is talking about an elect peopke cf Israel not individual salvation. You are look8ng at things with a 16th century mind not a first century Jewish one@puck61
Mathers · 61-69
The sort of nonsense which is above is obvious to someone who reads the new Testament properly because of course Jesus claimed to be God and that’s why they crucified him. A cursory reading of the new Testament will tell you that. You can’t have it to ways. Jesus claimed to be God and was the Messiah who took the sin of the world upon him self. That is Christianity. If you don’t like it God does not force you to believe
akindheart · 61-69, F
he is the son of God and we go through him to get to the Father who is the real God.
zonavar68 · 56-60, M
God does not exist as any humanoid entity - god is a man-made concept for everything that humans cannot understand purported by religions (primarily the Christian ones) to encapsulate all that in a singular being aka the Mormon 'pearl of great price'. God can not be either male or female in humanoid terms, therefore God can neither be referred to as 'he' or 'father' as much as 'she' or 'mother'.
zonavar68 · 56-60, M
@Mathers I read both parts of the collection of stories you call the Bible. I am fully allowed to call it a sham if I choose to. You can't handle that another person thinks different to you.
Mathers · 61-69
I can handle it. Especially when they talk rubbish like you do . I happened to have studied history and ancient history. I also had to have studied science as well. As a result I know you’re talking nonsense@zonavar68
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@zonavar68 You have no idea what you are babbling about but carry on in your ignorance. We can all use a good laugh.
Pfuzylogic · M
I didn’t bother to read everything. You make your first part outrageously charged.
There is a Trinity.
Jesus is God and not in the manner of Moses who was called “a friend”.
The shedding of blood from Jesus offers a chance of Salvation for all humankind.
BibleData · M
@Pfuzylogic
I didn’t bother to read everything.

No one ever does.

There is a Trinity.

Of course there is. The problem did the Jews who were awaiting a messiah and the early Christians believed the trinity applied to that messiah.

So, where, historically, can the trinity be found.

Hint. Think of Plato. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triad_(religion)

Jesus is God and not in the manner of Moses who was called “a friend”.

Here God calls the judges of Israel gods. Jesus quoted it when the religious leaders of his day were upset for him thinking a man could be a god. Moses was called God (Exodus 4:16 Hebrew lelohim, Greek theon, Latin Deum; Exodus 7:1 Hebrew elohim, Greek theon, Latin Deum).
Pfuzylogic · M
@BibleData
The Trinity is derived by the combination of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit being one God. There are many examples of all three in the New Testament. Actually there are examples of Jesus in the Old Testament doing God’s business.
Mathers · 61-69
Sorry mate you’re wrong. I can’t be bothered to unravel all this stuff but you need to get your theology right
Mathers · 61-69
Absolute rubbish. But pointless arguing woth you as you have made up your mind to be deceived @BibleData
BibleData · M
@Mathers No, I haven't. If Jesus and Jehovah are the same I want to know it. You can't find the true God without truth. You can't invent your own truth. You are blinded by the traditions of men.

God can't die. Jesus died.

Mark 13:32, RS: “Of that day or that hour no ones knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

John 14:28, RS: “[Jesus said:] If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.”

1 Corinthians 11:3, RS: “I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.”

1 Peter 1:3, RS: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!”

John 1:18: “No one has ever seen God.”



The New Encyclopædia Britannica: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). ... The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. ... By the end of the 4th century ... the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia : “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

The Encyclopedia Americana: “Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, onthe contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol.XXVII, p. 294L.
Mathers · 61-69
Tripe@BibleData
It is simple. Humanity is depraved. only through the blood of Christ can the elect of God be saved from the desolation we deserve because every imagination and thought of our heart is only evil continually.
@Mathers I’m primitive Baptist……..we get called “Calvinist” a lot but nothing could be farther from the truth.
@Mathers 2Peter 1:20-21
BibleData · M
@puck61
It is simple. Humanity is depraved. only through the blood of Christ can the elect of God be saved from the desolation we deserve because every imagination and thought of our heart is only evil continually.

I'm sorry. To me that sounds like a bumper sticker slogan. It doesn't have any real meaning. It certainly doesn't do anything to answer Romans 6:7 or Acts 24:15.
hunkalove · 61-69, M
Way too long.
SW-User
@BibleData no, dude it really is too long
BibleData · M
@SW-User Tell you what. Read the portion of it that is, to you, a suitable length and see if you can come up with some reply. Otherwise be quiet and let the grown ups talk amongst themselves.
SW-User
@BibleData ok daddy whatever you say, “Grown up” 😏😩
revenant · F
Ah you notice the trinity question also.
SW-User
I found the perfect pfp for you
“Let US make man in OUR image.”
Pinkstarburst · 51-55, F
This reads like a copy/paste; however, after trudging through its entirety, I am assuming you’re first sentence is what you believe.
BibleData · M
@Pinkstarburst I wrote the post myself. I and others have posted it elsewhere. Yes, my first sentence is what I believe.
Pinkstarburst · 51-55, F
@BibleData Then why didn’t you just leave it at that? I get that you’re a skeptic and admire how deep you delve into your cause (as most skeptics do), but all those other words get jumbled and lost in translation when you could just state your opinion and move forward.
BibleData · M
@Pinkstarburst I'm a believer, though I'm skeptical by nature. So, my opinion isn't that relevant other than the small part it may play in the process.
Maggimay · 46-50, F
As a Catholic, i would say yes.
The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
The Holy trinity
BibleData · M
@Maggimay The New Catholic Encyclopedia: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.” - (1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.
Maggimay · 46-50, F
@BibleData thats very deep into Catholicism and its past midnight here.
Way to over my head for this time of night.

So in saying that...
As lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep; His Love to guard me through the night, And wake me in the morning's light amen.
zonavar68 · 56-60, M
@Maggimay Very dogmatic that is.
Elegy · 46-50
Your welcome
Mathers · 61-69
You just did talk nonsense@Elegy
Elegy · 46-50
No @Mathers, It is all a joke. I can sense that. can you?
Mathers · 61-69
Funny thing to joke about@Elegy
Steve42 · 56-60, M
I think itd be more helpful if you were concise in your arguments.

Not everyone reads this site from a computer screen, many are on their phone.
This ammount of text is not only daunting for some, but literally difficult to physically read for others with eyesight problems or forms of dyslexia.

Perhaps pose your question, then use your examples when debating with memebers.

So much reasoning at once, with so many examples, makes responding difficult as theres too much at once to reply to.

Js🤷‍♀️

(The edit was: i spelt dyslexia wrong....which is ironic😅)
Fukfacewillie · 56-60, M
You post is too short. Jesus.
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
Mathers · 61-69
If you actually read the Bible and actually read Paul and remember he was a pious Jew you come to the inescapable conclusion from his writings he believed in the Truine God. It is quite obvious to anyone who reads them. All this junk your writing is just merely confusion@BibleData
BibleData · M
@Mathers How do you conclude that Paul being an educated and pious Jew would make him a pagan trinitarian?
Mathers · 61-69
A Pharisee like Paul would only use the language Paul uses of Jesus to refer to Yahweh. You don’t appear to understand that with your western mindset@BibleData
This message was deleted by the author of the main post.
Mathers · 61-69
This message was deleted by the author of the main post.
Mathers · 61-69
He is wrong@BlueSkyKing

 
Post Comment