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If God wants to forgive us, if god wants to forgive us so much that he sent his only begotten son to die...why can't he just forgive us?

[b]Why do you suppose that he needs death and blood and torture to forgive if that is his desire?[/b]
Matt85 · 36-40, M
I'm not 100% sure myself but I trust Him. In Revelation (I think it is), Jesus says he has the keys of death and hades.
@Matt85

Yeah, i mean i don't really expect anyone to be say "I know what god's thinking and here's the answer!". More just interested in how they would justify blood sacrifice as payment for forgiveness and why god made the rules like that.
SW-User
The base of it is this:
Man gained two things by eating the fruit:
1. Sin (The soul-disease)
2. Knowledge of good and evil (awareness of transgression)

Sin is a corruptor of everything and is hereditary. We are not evil, but sick. We are born corrupted.
Corruption cannot have fellowship with God, who is not corrupted.

God set the law in place to show man that they are corrupted and dependent on Him to be saved from their corruption

God then sent His Son, incorruptible, to fulfill the law (sinless) and die with the curse of Sin within him, then to rise again to ascend back to the Father. (Firstborn to paradise) This made Christ:
1. Eternally Righteous.

Next, there is Pentecost.
Jesus sent his spirit to live in us.
1. We sacrifice our life and desire (ego death) (killing the sin-spirit)
2. We accept Christ’s Spirit to live In us (making us righteous because God himself now inhabits is)
3. When our body dies, The Father recognizes the spirit of His son, not the sin-spirit.

Simple
Easy to remember
Why didn’t he just 86 Satan and not let any of it happen? Idk

I’d probably do it differently myself but hey
BibleData · M
@SW-User Out of curiosity, do you just make all of that up or have you read it somewhere else?
SW-User
@BibleData A Falakatan magician never reveals his tricks
@BibleData

It does sound like some woo mixed in with Christianity. Which i suppose is fairly popular these days.
Carazaa · F
Because all sin must be punished, and to get into heaven we must be perfect. Anyone who minimizes sin just don't understand The Holiness of God. His standards are very high! Jesus took our sins on his own shoulders for 3 days and we don't need to go to hell for eternity if we repent.
[b] Romans 6:23[/b]

[b][c=BF0000]"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."[/c][/b]
@Carazaa

I think it would be cooler if he didn't insist on blood sacrifice to forgive. When i want to forgive someone i just choose to do it. If i don't want to forgive then i don't.
Carazaa · F
@Pikachu
[quote]If I don't want to forgive then i don't[/quote]

Ok fine, you might not think his salvation program is so cool, but instead of pondering why God uses blood sacrifices to punish sin, He wants us to focus on our sins and forgive others, and let Him be the judge.
[quote]
Our Father who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
[c=BF0000]And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass
against us.[/c]
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever.
Amen.

14 [c=BF0000]For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you will not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive you your trespasses.[/c][/quote]

Nite, nite
@Carazaa

Well i think not asking "why" is generally a big part of faith but since i don't believe that god is real, i'm free to ask that important question.
I wasn't expecting a definitive explanation for god's motives, just some speculation.

Thanks for the discussion👍
BibleData · M
Justice. So, an atheist is harmed by someone breaking the law. Could be theft, homicide, battery. How is justice served?
@BibleData

[quote]Pikachu, what punishment?
[/quote]

You're talking about the importance of recognizing the " value of the thing destroyed" but this substitutional atonement does nothing to that end.
But for some reason Blood is a necessary price. It happens in the Old Testament too. An animal's blood for a human's sin.

[quote]The offended party didn't have the money.[/quote]

The offended party is god and also the judge is god and also the person paying is god.
How is that justice?
You've been using legal cases as analogy here but under what circumstances would you see a legal case where the plaintive, the the judge and the person paying the fine are all the same person and call it good justice?

[quote]. The point of it is blood for blood. Justice. Fairness[/quote]

So you continue to claim but have yet to justify.

[quote]A sort of gesture of justice.[/quote]

Exactly. A gesture. Ritualistic, reactive. Not justice.
Do you see?
This is not an explanation of why god should need to blood for forgiveness and it's not an explanation of why blood is so important that he'll kill his own son/aspect of himself to get it.
You're explaining the blood magic, not justifying it.
BibleData · M
@Pikachu [quote]You're talking about the importance of recognizing the " value of the thing destroyed" but this substitutional atonement does nothing to that end.
But for some reason Blood is a necessary price. It happens in the Old Testament too. An animal's blood for a human's sin.[/quote]

You didn't answer the question. What punishment?

The thing destroyed was blood. The thing asked in return was blood. Eye for eye. Soul (blood/life) for soul.

Jesus's blood paid for Adam's blood. Jesus isn't Jehovah. Jehovah doesn't have blood. It had to be a man without sin as Adam was without sin before the event took place.

It happened in the so-called OT as a tutor or instruction to the Israelites. Read the article on the Bible I gave. God tested Abraham to see if he as representing his future family, would sacrifice his son. God wasn't going to sacrifice Jesus if it wasn't important enough to Abraham to do the same. Abraham's willingness was an indication that his offspring would be more likely to be instructed. God formed a nation of imperfect incomplete laws the Israelites couldn't follow. That's sin. It means to miss the mark. They would also be provided the escape. Jesus sacrifice. A messiah.

Galatians 3:13, 19, 24-25: "Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: 'Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake.' Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made; and it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator. Consequently the Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith. But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a tutor."

[quote]The offended party is god and also the judge is god and also the person paying is god.[/quote]

Yes, yes and no. As I said Jesus is not God. Christians think Jesus is God because they adopted the trinity 400 years or so after Christ. Jesus didn't claim to be God. He was a god like the judges of Israel had been gods. Like Moses was a god. Not Jehovah. Jehovah isn't the only god.

[quote]You've been using legal cases as analogy here but under what circumstances would you see a legal case where the plaintive, the the judge and the person paying the fine are all the same person and call it good justice?[/quote]

It doesn't matter. Are you missing the point?

[quote]So you continue to claim but have yet to justify.[/quote]

Ephesians 1:7, which I quoted earlier, didn't do it? What precisely about my claim are you objecting to?

[quote]Exactly. A gesture. Ritualistic, reactive. Not justice.
Do you see?[/quote]

Call it whatever you want. Call it evolution if you like. How is paying a fine not justice?

[quote]This is not an explanation of why god should need to blood for forgiveness and it's not an explanation of why blood is so important that he'll kill his own son/aspect of himself to get it.[/quote]

[Shakes head. Sighs]

Blood is the soul. Life. It belongs to the creator. Satan killed everyone by taking Adam's blood. Jesus paid it back.

I've explained the basics. The two links give further detail. Your objections are irrelevant. Disconnected.
@BibleData

[quote]It doesn't matter. Are you missing the point?[/quote]

It does matter because we're using legal proceedings as a framework by which we understand the application of justice.
I think it's rather telling that when we put this blood ritual of substitutional atonement in that framework we both seem to recognize that there are some serious problems calling the result justice.

[quote]What punishment?[/quote]

Whatever is waiting for us if we don't accept the blood sacrifice, i suppose.

[quote]The thing destroyed was blood. The thing asked in return was blood. Eye for eye. Soul (blood/life) for soul.[/quote]

Exactly! The thing asked for in return was blood.
Why?
I don't know how to get through to you. You're repeating the terms of the blood magic when i'm asking why blood magic is necessary at all.
Same goes for Ephesians.
You keep answering my question of [i]why[/i] does god need blood with "Blood pays for blood!". That's not an explanation, it's an identification of the rule under question.

[quote]Call it whatever you want. Call it evolution if you like. How is paying a fine not justice?[/quote]

Not sure why i'd call it evolution lol.
Paying a fine is meant to punish and deter the perpetrator as well as compensate the offended party for losses.
Well when someone else pays the fine its neither a punishment nor a deterrent and therefore not justice on those counts. That just leaves with compensation for the wronged party...which brings us back to the question why good needs to be compensated by the spilling of blood.

I feel like we're going in circles here so i'm fine if you want to end the conversation there.
I'll give you a final word if you want it✌️
Scribbles · 36-40, F
It never made sense to me.

Why does God demand sacrifice, and yet tells his people to do the opposite as him and forgive without sacrifice and payment? If God can't forgive purely and completely out of the "goodness" and "love" of his heart why does he demand it of others to do so?

Kind of funny rules...
@Scribbles Interesting point
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
'Cause the story is way cooler this way.
@Kwek00 Definitely more metal🤘
DocSavage · M
Why can’t he just knock up another virgin and have more kids ?
Ooh them's thinkin words and we don't like that round these parts
Wabanaki · 31-35, M
If you truly want to know, ask him yourself, be weary how you might be shown, might not be how you expect, but you ask and you shall receive
@Wabanaki

[quote]ask and you shall receive[/quote]

Not in my experience.
It’s called scapegoating.
@BlueSkyKing

But in the Bible the scapegoat flees with all the sins while the clean goat is sacrificed!
Blood magic hurray!
travelguy01 · 41-45, M
Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies.

Man made stories meant to instill fear for the purposes of control and greed.
@travelguy01 Well whatever the motivation, blood atonement does seem more like a human notion than that of an omnipotent being.
basilfawlty89 · 31-35, M
Well that's assuming the wee lad Yeshua was really Yahweh's son, some say it was that Roman Pantera feller. Maryam snuck out one night, said she fancied a roll. Turned out the roll was in the hay ;)

 
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