Because all sin must be punished, and to get into heaven we must be perfect. Anyone who minimizes sin just don't understand The Holiness of God. His standards are very high! Jesus took our sins on his own shoulders for 3 days and we don't need to go to hell for eternity if we repent. [b] Romans 6:23[/b]
[b][c=BF0000]"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."[/c][/b]
How is it punishment for me if Jesus was a blood sacrifice? Why does god need a blood sacrifice to forgive us to the point that the blood of an innocent person is spilled because [i]someone[/i] damn well has to bleed even if it's not the guilty party? How does that make sense? Why does salvation depend on "[i]spill blood, repent of your sins and love me[/i]" rather than just "[i]repent of your sins and love me[/i]" ?
Repeating that the wages of sin IS death does not ho anywhere to explaining why this should be the rule.
@Pikachu How is it a punishment for you if Jesus was tortured instead of you? That is Grace! That is crazy love! That is God in action;[b] to show you how terrible sin is, and show you how much he loves you![/b]
How is salvation depended on spilled blood? First I think it is important to understand that [b]God makes the rules, not us. [/b]His rule is that we can't have a relationship with him at all if we sin because he is sinless and Holy. He lives in heaven. His rule is that all sin deserves death, that is why we die, because we are sinful. It is a rule like gravity or any other rule of the universe. You have to ask him if you have a chance why he makes these rules but he is fair for those who are the victims of sin. He is a just God and doesn't have to put up with any of our selfishness. From dust we were made and to dust we return.
We are not very loving creatures but he expect us to be loving all the time, to always treat others the way we want to be treated. And to do all for the glory of God and to be grateful in everything.
Before the fall in the garden of Eden we didn't die, but now we do because we are cursed, everyone of us, because of genetics and our own free will. None deserve any relationship with God, none deserve heaven. We are all doomed to die. But because of God's love for us he took our sins and the eternal punishment so we can have a relationship with him, and we will never die but live forever with him and all the others who have trusted in Jesus. That is his salvation program.
[quote]How is it a punishment for you if Jesus was tortured instead of you? That is Grace! That is crazy love![/quote]
So it's not a punishment for the sinner. Agreed. You call it crazy love, i just call it crazy that blood is so important that [i]someone[/i] has to bleed even if they are innocent.
[quote]God makes the rules, not us.[/quote]
Exactly. Ostensibly he has supreme authority over the very nature of reality so one is forced to wonder why he'd demand blood for forgiveness.
Personally this is just one of those problems that make a lot more sense if one considers the Abrahamic religions to be a product of man rather than god.
@Pikachu You're right it's not a punishment for us, that's just the thing it isn't punishment at all, its grace. But the point is that sin is bad and sin has to be punished according to The Bible. God is the judge of sin, he dishes out the punishment either in this life or the next. "Judgment is mine says The Lord" He loves us so he took our punishment for us. You don't think that is loving? Have you ever had a speeding ticket? If someone pays for your fine is that not awesome?
God is very Holy, so people don't like him. In most other religions the gods are not just, they say"you can do whatever as long as you feel good and are happy", like eastern religions focus on feeling peaceful instead of on God's Holiness. Or religions where its ok for people to punish people, they focus on justice more than on love. Or religions where people can take judgment in their own hands. Atheism is more like that it seems. Turning the other cheek is not so popular in atheism, its more popular to treat people the way they treat you, rather than treat people the way you want to be treated, The "Golden Rule". But how can God be loving unless he is just?
You really think The Bible could possibly be a product of man rather than God breathed? You really believe that all the people writing the Bible knew the future? Not possible Pikachu! Men critizicing themselves? Punished themselves? Impossible!
The Bible is God breathed because of the prophesies. God punished the Jews severely because they married into other religions and worshiped their gods. He told them he would scatter them, and he did, and he said that he would give them back their land and he did in 1948, not of themselves it was a gift to them one day in May 14, 1948, just as God said he would.
[b][quote]"This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will gather you from the nations and bring you back from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you back the land of Israel again." Ezekiel 11[/quote][/b]
And since 1948 more and more prophesies are being fulfilled! For those of us who have studied the Bible our whole lives and spoken to Grandparents who never saw these things in their childhood but told us they would happen in the future we know that there is no way that the Bible is not God breathed.
[quote]You really think The Bible could possibly be a product of man rather than God breathed?[/quote]
Yup. Utterly convinced. And that conviction just grows the more i think about the details and the more i learn about the history and contemporary and earlier religions of the near east.
[quote]But how can God be loving unless he is just?[/quote]
It's not justice either to kill an innocent person in place of another. It's not justice when one person is at once the plaintive, the defendant [i]and[/i] the judge. And however you choose to see this series of events, it goes nowhere to understanding why god has decided he must have blood no matter whose blood it is.
But i'm not really interested in getting into what you think of the character of god as described in the Bible vs how i see him because this thread is meant to conjecture the justification for why god demands blood.
@Pikachu [quote]t's not justice either to kill an innocent person in place of another. It's not justice when one person is at once the plaintive, the defendant and the judge.[/quote]
OK so according to you then people should all pay for their own sins, great! Remember Jesus chose to be the sacrificial lamb. He did it willingly because he loves us.
Why does God demand blood? Because blood is life! Without blood we are dead. And we are dead spiritually because of our sins. We are pretty dense so God has to liken blood sacrifice to sin and death for us to get it. He is making a point that because of sin we will die. It is clearly a demonstration of how terrifying and terrible sin is! I guess that is why Jesus reminds us when we take communion to remember his blood and what he did for us. "Drink this in remembrance of me" The lamb sacrifices that the Israelites were commanded to do were so they understood that their sins were deadly and so they would appreciate Jesus the ultimate sacrifice and understand that he was the ultimate sacrificed lamb.
So you reckon god demands blood and death to drive home a metaphor and he sticks to that object lesson to the point where someone has to pay in blood even if it's not the guilty party?
@Pikachu Death is more than an object lesson, or a metaphor! God saves us from death, not just anyone. That is super duper cool and fantastic! Don't you think?
I think it would be cooler if he didn't insist on blood sacrifice to forgive. When i want to forgive someone i just choose to do it. If i don't want to forgive then i don't.
@Pikachu [quote]If I don't want to forgive then i don't[/quote]
Ok fine, you might not think his salvation program is so cool, but instead of pondering why God uses blood sacrifices to punish sin, He wants us to focus on our sins and forgive others, and let Him be the judge. [quote] Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. [c=BF0000]And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us.[/c] And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.
14 [c=BF0000]For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you will not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive you your trespasses.[/c][/quote]
Well i think not asking "why" is generally a big part of faith but since i don't believe that god is real, i'm free to ask that important question. I wasn't expecting a definitive explanation for god's motives, just some speculation.
