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CopperCicada · M
The problem of evil is something that any theist has to face. In formal theology it’s called theodicy. There’s usually two angles to theodicy. To try to understand how evil can exist in a world created by a good God, and to create a vision of God that is is consistent with the reality that the world is fucking awful. There are a bunch of classic Christian theodicies by Augustine, Iraneus, Origin, and modern theologians.
I agree with some modern theologians in that theodicies normalize and forgive evil in the world. They normalize violence, inhumanity, abuse, war, horror. This darkness ends up becoming part of the system: God has a plan, that is why a child is raped. A child is raped because of our sin, our corrupted nature. A world with horrors like a child raped is necessary for us to develop spiritually and know God. All this legitimizes these horrors. Such theology becomes the potential basis for evil.
I agree with some modern theologians in that theodicies normalize and forgive evil in the world. They normalize violence, inhumanity, abuse, war, horror. This darkness ends up becoming part of the system: God has a plan, that is why a child is raped. A child is raped because of our sin, our corrupted nature. A world with horrors like a child raped is necessary for us to develop spiritually and know God. All this legitimizes these horrors. Such theology becomes the potential basis for evil.
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CopperCicada · M
@Pikachu Theodicy is a huge part of traditional Jewish theology. I mean, they were the chosen people, God’s favorites, and God put them threw some shit. The Old Testament is full of examples of theodicy.
But the holocaust changed that. How can you believe in a loving God after that? So there is a whole movement of post holocaust Jewish theology. From what I could tell reading about it, all anti-theodicy.
What’s interesting is that the work of some of these holocaust theologians has been extended to child abuse and the same questions it provides. How do you have a God that allows that? You can’t, unless it is through protest.
But the holocaust changed that. How can you believe in a loving God after that? So there is a whole movement of post holocaust Jewish theology. From what I could tell reading about it, all anti-theodicy.
What’s interesting is that the work of some of these holocaust theologians has been extended to child abuse and the same questions it provides. How do you have a God that allows that? You can’t, unless it is through protest.
@CopperCicada
Well obviously i'm no Jewish scholar lol. But i just don't see the issue for them.
Burning the wrong sort of incense is punishable by being burned alive lol
Well obviously i'm no Jewish scholar lol. But i just don't see the issue for them.
Burning the wrong sort of incense is punishable by being burned alive lol
CopperCicada · M
@Pikachu I think the point is that after the holocaust the question of reconciling evil in a world created by a good and just God was off the table. Theodicy was not an option.
The only option was to give up the faith, and many did. Or to be angry and challenge God. And follow that to its endpoint— a commitment to justice here and now.
The only option was to give up the faith, and many did. Or to be angry and challenge God. And follow that to its endpoint— a commitment to justice here and now.
Straylight · 31-35, F
Waiting to see how this gets argued with.
Straylight · 31-35, F
@Pikachu There’s an assertion amongst SW bible thumper’s (or at least two of them) that atheists just don’t want to believe in god. But that actually sounds amazing. To know for sure there’s an order to the universe, that everything will ultimately be alright. But it doesn’t look like that’s the case.
It’s not a stubborn refusal, it’s just being realistic.
It’s not a stubborn refusal, it’s just being realistic.
@Straylight
Yeah it's a silly notion held by some Christians. I think it is earnestly held but silly none the less.
As if i wouldn't want to believe that death is not the end and that i'll get to see my departed loved ones again, happy and healthy.
Turns out i'd very much like to believe that. I just don't 🤷♀️
Yeah it's a silly notion held by some Christians. I think it is earnestly held but silly none the less.
As if i wouldn't want to believe that death is not the end and that i'll get to see my departed loved ones again, happy and healthy.
Turns out i'd very much like to believe that. I just don't 🤷♀️
Entwistle · 56-60, M
She is right. However i would add the question 'If God is omniscient then why did he create the child rapist in tje first place?
People that say he can't because free will...
Well what about the free will to not be molested. Why does God allow the rapist free will to override the child's free will?
Also punishment after the fact is a violation of free will because it is against the will of the rapist to be punished. So why is God violating free will then but completely disregarded the child's free will?
People just need to actually think these things through to the farthest conclusions.
Well what about the free will to not be molested. Why does God allow the rapist free will to override the child's free will?
Also punishment after the fact is a violation of free will because it is against the will of the rapist to be punished. So why is God violating free will then but completely disregarded the child's free will?
People just need to actually think these things through to the farthest conclusions.
@canusernamebemyusername
It's really just not a good excuse.
Free will is held up as the ultimate priority to god even though there is little scriptural support for this reverence.
It's really just not a good excuse.
Free will is held up as the ultimate priority to god even though there is little scriptural support for this reverence.
NortiusMaximus · M
@Pikachu "Frre will" just just an excuse invented by christians to attempt to explain why their almighty god is powerless to stop bad things happening.
@NortiusMaximus
That's certainly how it comes off to me.
I mean i get that free will should be important...but THE most important, always? I don't buy it.
That's certainly how it comes off to me.
I mean i get that free will should be important...but THE most important, always? I don't buy it.
Zonuss · 41-45, M
No mortal can fathom or see things as someone who is immortal. With that being said we all have free will. Some of us are good some of us are evil. God does punish severely those who do these horrific acts especially if a child is involved. Just because you are ignorant of that conviction does not mean that your interpretation of God is remotely accurate or relevant. 🙂
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NortiusMaximus · M
@jshm2 Police forces do not claim to be omniscient and omnipotent. Christians claim their god has both those qualities.
@jshm2
I'm not convinced you've ever actually heard of this woman before. With God as your witness, did you have examples of people laughing at her when you wrote that?
lol wow, speaking of straw manning:
No, no that is not at all the logic behind her comment.
The police do not have the power to protect every child from being molested. God (ostensibly) does.
And while every police officer would, had they the power...apparently god thinks it's better to wag the finger at a child rapist only after they've finished raping a child.
...and it's why she's laughed at, and full of shit.[quote]
[/quote]I'm not convinced you've ever actually heard of this woman before. With God as your witness, did you have examples of people laughing at her when you wrote that?
every police force should be defunded if they do not solve 100% of the crimes.
lol wow, speaking of straw manning:
No, no that is not at all the logic behind her comment.
The police do not have the power to protect every child from being molested. God (ostensibly) does.
And while every police officer would, had they the power...apparently god thinks it's better to wag the finger at a child rapist only after they've finished raping a child.
Doomflower · 36-40, M
I love her
justanothername · 51-55, M
Ironically the Catholic Church has the worst historical record of sex crimes that have been covered up over centuries by way of a “vow of silence” mentality.
@justanothername
Yeah they have an absolutely appalling record. They fail just as hard as god in this respect.
Harder actually, since they don't tend even to punish the perpetrators that much.
Yeah they have an absolutely appalling record. They fail just as hard as god in this respect.
Harder actually, since they don't tend even to punish the perpetrators that much.
SW-User
But free will
Glorifying god
Suffering is good blah blah
Glorifying god
Suffering is good blah blah
@SW-User
Those are indeed the excuses. But it makes no sense given an omnipotent god.
So he knows the person was about to rape a child...but he stops it and punishes that person for the act they intended to commit and which he knows they would have without his intervention.
Child saved, wicked punished.
Those are indeed the excuses. But it makes no sense given an omnipotent god.
So he knows the person was about to rape a child...but he stops it and punishes that person for the act they intended to commit and which he knows they would have without his intervention.
Child saved, wicked punished.
SW-User
Gawd is the original sex offender, just ask Mary