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Here's what i see as a problem with heaven. Feedback appreciated

So you've made it to heaven. Well done!
But when you get there, you find out that your husband/wife or children or some other person dear to you hasn't made it in.

How do you enjoy paradise knowing that person who is dear to you is suffering?
Or is your memory of that person erased and if it is, would that be a desirable circumstance? Would you want that person you loved to cease to exist for you?

Thoughts?

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gregloa · 61-69, M
If you’re a true Christian, and that is one big if, you have the Spirit of truth in you. Leading you in righteousness bearing good fruit so that the Father may be glorified in the Son because you have kept Jesus’s commands proving that you love Him. Otherwise you don’t have the Spirit of Truth leading you nor do you love Jesus because you don’t keep his commands no matter what you say before men. Now as I said if you are then you have done everything you can and the Spirit has helped you gain all your loved ones to Christ rendering your question null and void. If there are those who refused your encouragement which most likely would be impossible then they love the world and God has given them over to their evil desires. Men and women with the Spirit love Jesus and God not the world. We will not have wives in Heaven. If the case is as you state here then most likely you have joined the ones you speak of here in as you call suffering. We won’t be asked in Heaven of our desires. No man can know what paradise in Heaven will be like until we get there. Men of God only follow the Spirits leadership striving to bear good fruit with good works glorifying God in Christ and aren’t concerned about the worldly things you speak of here.
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Lila15 · 22-25, F
@gregloa How do you know you're a "true Christian?" Every Christian believes themselves to be a "true Christian," so you can't go by that.
gregloa · 61-69, M
@Lila15
You know you are a true Christian if you have the Spirit of truth in you, leading you in righteousness bearing good fruit so that the Father may be glorified in the Son because you have kept Jesus command’s proving that you love Him. We know who are true Christians by their fruit. Not what everyone claims with their mouths.
AuRevoir · 36-40, M
The same way everyone currently does in real life.

When you see someone with a dead child are they no longer allowed to ever smile again?

If someone’s parent is in prison for being bad is the child not allowed to laugh or play?

Heaven is as simple as a choice for forgiveness. Many of which refuse to take. It’s their own action and they’ll get what they want in life. And the others who get heaven will get what they want as well.

Heaven is a place of infinite wonders. Which means you’ll have the all to forgotten sense of childlike sense of wonder and discovery. Within the existence of infinite always at your fingertips. And being given your true family/heavenly family you’ll be preoccupied with them.

You’ll also be in agreement with God’s judgment and his will. As that was your choice to do so while on earth. You’re not going to be suddenly led astray to do the opposite when you’re in the most wondrous place of all existence. And on the finally judgement when everyone is suddenly incapable of lying, and their entire life is played back before them, including their inner monologues and everything they hoped to keep secret. Without the ability to lie, those being kicked out of heaven will do their best to make excuses since that will be their only defense. But they already made their decision at that point. But why would someone who passed through all the horrible trials earth gives you. Be concerned about what others chose to do? They chose to do bad things for their narcissistic pleasure. They caused division. They attempted to push away God’s truth. If you’re someone who agrees with God’s truth solely based on faith and the limited personal experiences you got to have with God. You’re going to infinitely double down on those feelings once you’re in his presence.

Families fight and clash and swear off one another all the time in real life. And that’s without the need of introducing all the mechanics of an afterlife and final judgement. People CHOOSE to leave you all the time in real life. And at that point they CHOSE to not be with you in heaven. It was their choice not only to reject God. But to also reject the family/friends that wanted them to be there but they said no. Why should anyone care about that kind of blunt and cruel person who chose such rejection, all to have their own narcissistic way instead?
AuRevoir · 36-40, M
@Pikachu “here’s a tip- actually read the posts”

That’s all the notification covered.

To a yes or no question.

All that implied was I’ve made the right choice by not reading anything further when it amounted to a discussion that was supposedly “done” being talked about.

“Logic”
Lila15 · 22-25, F
@AuRevoir You're confusing faith with trust. If my doctor says I have high blood pressure and must take a pill to lower it, I believe him because he went to medical school and has a license to practice medicine from the state. Or I don't believe him and go to a different doctor for a second opinion. Faith isn't involved at all.

Religious statements can't be verified the same way. I can't visit heaven or hell or talk directly to God or Satan and decide which one I'm going to follow. Faith is belief without evidence. Kierkegaard said that if a man managed to prove the truth of Christianity beyond any doubt whatsoever, by doing so he would have destroyed it.

Are you choosing to not believe in Scientology? Or do you not believe in it because it's absurd? So you can't "choose" to believe in it; you're incapable of believing in it. If someone views Christianity as absurd, it's just as unreasonable for you to tell them that they must choose to believe it anyway, just as it would be absurd for a Scientologist to tell you to choose to believe in Scientology despite how absurd it is.
AuRevoir · 36-40, M
@Lila15 I am not confusing faith with trust. Plenty of people who start their life in a faith walk with their creator read and know the scriptures where God asks them to know the fruits of his blessings to know that he is real. They’ve experience small miracles and large miracles as their life goes on. That can’t be explained by anything other than divine intervention. And that’s how trust is formed, that if one part of the Bible becomes edified. Then other parts even though you can’t use a Time Machine to clarify results, also edify themselves. When God proves himself to those that rely on him, granting anxious people peace that surpasses all understanding despite their situations being completely chaotic etc… Trust becomes built, because the supernatural has taken place in their life, and they were comforted in situations that would normally have been impossible to find comfort in. Trust was EARNED at that point. The leap of faith starts more at the beginning of that journey. So your entire perspective is skewed because you never with a sincere heart choose to even take a leap of faith.

Scientology is automatic hogwash. It was written as a sci-fi fantasy novel. But the author was having a conversation with one of his friends and told that friend he could convince people the book is real because people are stupid and easy to fool. And he did just that. We already know the origins of Scientology. So what’s the point in believing it when we can search the historic records of books where he published it as FICTION? You’re bad at making arguments. Scientology isn’t even a contender on what to believe vs. what not to believe as a religion. Anyone who gets fooled into believing it are just as the founder/author claimed them to be. Simpletons who are easy to fool.

All people have a choice. The moment you are told Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins, for you to repent and turn your way from that sin, and to live a new life, with the plans God has in store for you for that life. It’s now your choice to make to either accept it, or disregard it. It’s a choice you make. Look up the definition of choice if your brain is so atrophied that you truly believe your own definition of choice somehow supercedes that of the original definition. You’re the one who’s confusing “Feelings” someone has towards something with the word “Choice” just because you have a feeling doesn’t mean tat implies automatic choice. You’re attempting to become more convoluted with “factors” and disingenuously claiming them as “Choice” your argument is thus: “Based on a persons ‘feelings’ they will never make that ‘CHOICE’ because their ‘feelings’ won’t allow them to.”

This is a blatant fallacy in argument. Feelings amount to variables and likelihoods of a final decision being made. But a choice is separate. You still either reject something or accept something at the end of the day. There are COUNTLESS TESTIMONIES of people who were atheists for years who had that “feeling” no longer become a factor when they finally changed their mind and changed their choice on what they believe.

The feelings you’re attempting to add to the argument and equation can only be factored as to the likelihood of rejection vs. acceptance by the choice. But it is not a “replacement” on what a choice comes down to by definition. The fact that you can’t even understand basic definitions and concepts simply validated my initial posts. And makes it pointless to read anything you have to say further. You’re either intentionally disingenuous, or you’re moronic and don’t understand what a “choice” is. People are making hundreds if not thousands of choices a day. Both on a subconscious and conscious level. Even routines, and bad habits are formulated through “choices” made long into the persons past. You need to fucking reeducate yourself if this is truly the dipshit perspective you believe.
saintsong · 41-45, F
I'm just like you... I've also been told that we won't remember those who didn't make it... Wiped clear from our memory so we don't suffer... But that's sad in itself! BLAH!!! I don't really know, maybe we will know why and then understand and be comforted but I really don't know.
@saintsong

Right?
Isn't that idea already the premise of dystopian sci-fi movies?
Lila15 · 22-25, F
I believe St. Augustine explained this. Since God's justice is perfect, people in heaven will gaze down with joy at the sight of everyone burning in hell, as a manifestation of God's perfect justice. It doesn't matter if it's people they loved in life. They are enemies of God and are getting what they deserve.

Here's a better question. Since there's a chance that children raised in even the most devout family might stray and leave the fold, is it moral for a believer to have children? I don't think it would be, because it's exposing them to the risk of eternal damnation. The only way to avoid this risk is for them not to be born. I never understood how religious people reconcile this.
@Pikachu Even simple stuff. Like I always felt the idea of a "god fearing Christian" being seen as a good and desirably thing to be proud of as being really twisted.
Lila15 · 22-25, F
@Pikachu Or, everyone should be sterilized as soon as possible to avoid even getting pregnant, as aborted fetuses are also "sinners" and destined for eternal torment since they're not saved.

The Shakers were a sect that did not believe in having children (I'm not sure if it was for the reason I mentioned or because they were anti-sex), so they relied on new converts to maintain their numbers. Predictably, there aren't many of them around anymore.
@Lila15

lol yeah, not a good way to keep your numbers up.
DeWayfarer · 61-69, M
Paradise Lost, Book I, Lines 221–270

Is this the Region, this the Soil,
the Clime,
Said then the lost Arch-Angel, this
the seat
That we must change for Heav’n,
this mournful gloom
For that celestial light? Be it so,
since he
Who now is Sovran can dispose
and bid
What shall be right: fardest from
him is best
Whom reason hath equald, force
hath made supream
Above his equals. Farewel happy
Fields
Where Joy for ever dwells: Hail
horrours, hail
Infernal world, and thou
profoundest Hell
Receive thy new Possessor: One
who brings
A mind not to be chang’d by
Place or Time.
The mind is its own place, and in
it self
Can make a Heav’n of Hell, a Hell
of Heav’n.
What matter where, if I be still the
same,
And what I should be, all but less
then he
Whom Thunder hath made
greater? Here at least
We shall be free; th’ Almighty hath
not built

Here for his envy, will not drive us
hence:
Here we may reign secure, and in
my choyce
To reign is worth ambition though
in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, then serve
in Heav’n.
But wherefore let we then our
faithful friends,
Th’ associates and copartners of
our loss
Lye thus astonisht on th’ oblivious
Pool,
And call them not to share with us
their part
In this unhappy Mansion, or once
more
With rallied Arms to try what may
be yet
Regaind in Heav’n, or what more
lost in Hell?


John Milton 1608 –1674

This poem is in the public domain.

calicuz · 56-60, M
There in lies the problem with doctrinal teaching. My own personal belief is if we want to know more about what heaven actually is and who is there, the Book of Enoch might be a better source when it comes to the Abrahamic God.
calicuz · 56-60, M
@tobynshorty

That's another problem with the Bible, no one knows who any of the authors are. That's why the Church HAS to tell us it's the "inspired word of God," in order to explain away why they have no idea who wrote any of it.
DeWayfarer · 61-69, M
@calicuz oh they do say that the new testament was written by the apostles according to the new testament books. And that genius was written by Moses. Yet give no proof of such.
calicuz · 56-60, M
@DeWayfarer

Exactly.
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@jshm2

You're also naive to think things of the flesh like "love" and "memory" mean anything when there is no longer flesh.

lol you mean things of the flesh like streets of gold, gates of pearl and mansions?

I don't think you properly engaged with the question here.
Lila15 · 22-25, F
@Pikachu I think those are supposed to be metaphors. I once asked a preacher how we can feel the fires of hell if we're dead and our nerves no longer work. He said there's no accurate way to describe it, but being burnt was the closest they could come up with.
@Lila15

Yeah i can see that. Hard to describe an unending, ecstatic god orgasm i suppose...at least without coming across like a perv lol
496sbc · 36-40, M
haha. cool beans. i miss the show actually.
496sbc · 36-40, M
pika pi. pikachu was the best. and good post
@496sbc

Well i wanna be the very best, like no one ever was! lol
JSul3 · 70-79
According to the Bible, everyone who has died is in their coffins or urn, awaiting judgement day.....nobody is in heaven.
We've been misinformed.
@JSul3

Yeah that's my understanding too. There's a like a couple dudes who have already been brought up there but everyone else sleeps in death until the second coming.
peterlee · M
Just dwell on God’s goodness.
@peterlee

I'd have to dwell an awful lot on god's goodness in order to forget my child was burning in hell
peterlee · M
@Pikachu That is not happening. My daughter died in my arms, a small child unbaptised. I commit her to God’s Grace as I do your child. The efficacy of the cross covers all things.
@peterlee

I'm so sorry my friend. And i hope you're right though i do not believe that you are.
Diotrephes · 70-79, M
@Pikachu = If you are talking about the biblical heaven can you cite the verse that says that families will be in heaven?
Diotrephes · 70-79, M
@Pikachu
I'm not sure what you mean?

I'm not aware of any verses in the biblical fairytale that says that there will be families in heaven. It does say that there will be no marriages in heaven. The focus will be on kissing God's butt for eternity.

Matthew 22:29-31 (NKJV) ="29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are [a]mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels [b]of God in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying,"
@Diotrephes

Yeah i don't know if there are meant to be families in heaven or if your marriage still exists in heaven and so on.
I do know that i cannot fathom being happy anywhere if i knew people i loved were suffering.
Diotrephes · 70-79, M
@Pikachu
I do know that i cannot fathom being happy anywhere if i knew people i loved were suffering.

The good thing about heaven and hell is that people can shop around the various religions to find one that suits them. The biblical heaven and hell are for the Jews only. Only people who are members of one of the twelve tribes of Israel can pass through one of the twelve gates into the 1500 mile-sided golden cube called New Jerusalem.
tobynshorty · 51-55, F
To me that is another inconsistency.
@tobynshorty

It's certainly a hard circle to square!

For myself, i cannot imagine living in paradise knowing someone i love is suffering.
tobynshorty · 51-55, F
@Pikachu yeah I want to see many people again. Sure don’t want to lose them forever. Plus my dogs. If our dogs don’t get in I don’t want to go there.
@tobynshorty

Right? It's hard enough to know you've lost someone you hold so dear. I can't imagine knowing that person is not only lost to you but suffering.
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@helenoftroy2000

What about the Raichus?
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@helenoftroy2000

lol oh ok then
walabby · M
If they exist, our whole concept of heaven and the afterlife is probably flawed. Our whole concept of reality is probably deeply flawed.
@walabby

Sure, but i'm going on what we know of heaven from the bible/christian tradition about what they reckon heaven is like
There. Is. No. Heaven.
@rinkydinkydoink

Yeah, probably not lol
If you think about it too long it sounds like a nightmare and hell is basically cosmic level coercion.
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow

lol i don't think you have to think about it too long to come to that conclusion
Adogslife · 61-69, M
If you believe in heaven and hell, then you’d have to come to grips with god being an evil sob.
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