Ro 10 [3] For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
@Axeroberts [quote]Why not just a nondenominational Creator. Just a Being who created it all without any scripture associated with it.[/quote]
Excellent question. Because God did not want us to believe that religion can save us. Look at all the trouble and suffering that Jesus went through so that he could save us. Why would he want religions to take credit for salvation? He alone deserves recognition and praise for his great work of Salvation to save mankind. Jesus never said to follow Jewish tradition or Lutheran tradition or Baptist tradition or Catholic tradition, etc. That would imply that one could work for their salvation and God said that's not possible because man cannot save himself from his own sins. It takes a perfect sacrifice for sin and that's why God appointed Jesus as Savior of the world because he is both perfect and sinless. The only one worthy enough to forgive us of our sins. God was also specific about who could save us. That's why he just didn't say a creator can save us. He named him and called him Savior of the world, to make sure he could be easily identified and there would be no mistake who got appointed to be savior of the world. His son, Jesus. God didn't want us guessing at such an important decision as where we go after we die and what happens to our souls. Because once you cross over there's no changing that. Once you're dead you cannot come back alive here on Earth. God said that's not possible and there's no such thing as reincarnation, so we have to get it right the first time. God wanted to make sure that we knew how to have salvation. The very best way to do that, was to send His Son Jesus, down to earth so he could minister to the people and tell them exactly what they needed to know, in order to go to heaven. God did not entrust this mission to anyone else. God [b]appointed[/b] Jesus as Savior. But Jesus was not forced to save us from our sins. Because of His great love for us, he volunteered to do so.
If you have any other questions, I'll be glad to answer them tomorrow. I can barely see the words on the screen. Have a good day or evening, wherever you are in the world. Haha
@Axeroberts Also, if God would have just said the Creator will save you, that's very vague and that would mean different things to different people. But by being specific and naming the name of Jesus, God was sure to let us know in whom we could find Salvation. He said their salvation and no other name under heaven. And in the end, God said that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord.
It's a personal choice. It's amusing to me that just because you don't want to subscribe to any religion, you have to challenge those who do.
Whether you're an atheist, an agnostic, or a heretic, when it comes to beliefs that are essential to one's identity, principles, or traditions, it doesn't make sense to demand an explanation from anyone why they believe what (or Who) they believe. Leave them be if this is their source of inspiration, strength, and peace.
@Axeroberts [quote]I am curious about this salvation you talk about. Is your belief because of what the Bible says?[/quote]
To answer this question would take quite a long time, because I don't need the Bible to confirm my belief in Christ. There is so much more involved in the basis for my belief in Christ, through my experience in Him. The proof you seek is found in the experience. Although, the Bible also does help those who turn to its contents in search for salvation, as well. It confirms what they have experienced in Christ. I wrote a post about that one time. I'll see if maybe I can find it.
I was not indoctrinated. I found Christ on my own. No one told me what I should believe. When I prayed to God, He heard and answered my prayer in a big way. When one is saved, they know it. Jesus sends the Holy Spirit of promise to dwell inside. The purpose of this Holy Spirit is to transform our hearts and lives to be more like Jesus. Another purpose of the Holy Spirit, is to teach us what scripture means. And then another purpose of the Holy Spirit serves as a seal from God upon new believers, confirming that they have been washed by the blood of the Lamb, forgiven of their sins, and represents ownership and a finished transaction in the believer, having been made one with Christ through His Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 2:14 - "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, [b]because[/b] they are [u]spiritually[/u] discerned."
@IamCuriousBabe [quote]The reason I say that is that simply talking on and on won't get you anyhere. They are popular in campuses because students are naturally curious. You seek with your mind and heart. At the time that you are open to receive, that's when a discussion can influence a listener to know more.[/quote]
Thank you for that, friend, but here's the reason I would like to extend on that. The Bible, for example, states that people are not always ready to [i]receive[/i] God's Word, but that when they [i]hear[/i] the Word, sometimes that word takes root in their heart and mind, and changes their minds to follow Jesus, which in turn, changes their whole life. Here's a verse on that:
@LadyGrace Agree with you on that. It has to fall on good soil. Also, words have to be inspired, because we also know that a lot of people can quote Bible verses but distort the message. An example I remember is using God's word solely to solicit money, and in those instances, those verses have been abused.
@Axeroberts [quote]what are you trying to prove. God's word is written in our heart's not in a book. but God speaks to us all differently in a way we can understand. I would encourage people to find that way for themselves.[/quote]
How else do you think we found out God's Plan of Salvation? How do you think the way of Salvation traveled, from the moment Christ died on the cross up till today? How do you think we found out the good news of Salvation if not by first the disciples, and then those who followed who were saved? Why do you think God handed down His Word to us through holy men of old? That was his way of making sure that we would not miss heaven and know how to be saved, not guess. God's Word is God's love letter to mankind....what does this verse from God's Word tell you?
"[u]I write these things[/u] to [b]you[/b] who believe in the name of the Son of God, [b]so that you may know that you have eternal life[/b]. This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us." 1 John 5:13
God's Word told us exactly where it comes from. From "holy men of old". Can you not believe God? You think he's a liar? Did God give you permission to change his Plan of Salvation to what you think it should be? Do you know better than God?
2 Peter 1:21 - "For the prophecy came [b]not[/b] in old time [b]by the will of man[/b]: but [b]holy men of God[/b] spake [b]as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.[/b]
God's word cannot be written in our hearts if we won't even accept his words in the Bible to holy men of old, given through the inspiration of the [b]Holy Spirit[/b] telling them what to write.
God spoke to us in His Word, which was given to the world and written by the Holy Spirit so that [u]all[/u] could understand. He gave it with one voice of the Holy Spirit, telling us exactly what we need to do to be saved and why. Tell me what is so hard to understand about these verses in John chapter 3, verses 16 and 17. They could not be more clear:
16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that [b]whosoever[/b] believeth in him, (meaning Jesus) should [b]not perish[/b], but have everlasting life.
WHY did God send His Son into the world?
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; [b]but that the world through him might be saved.[/b]
We can go by another plan, but God tells us that will not work. If you wanted to go to New York would I send you to Florida, the opposite direction? It won't work! Try all you want but it won't work any other way but what God said his plan would do for us. Why are you being so stubborn about that? I didn't make the rules nor the conditions of salvation. God did, but apparently you're not listening. You want to do it your own way, no matter what, and Jesus said that won't work.
Proverbs 14:12-16KJV There is a way which [b]seems[/b] right unto a man, But the end thereof are the ways of [b]death[/b].
@Axeroberts God is the one who made the Plan of Salvation and how else will we know what that plan is unless we read His Word? He said we just can't make up our own way of salvation, over God's, and expect it to work. He sent these conditions down, so that we won't miss them or miss heaven. Jesus IS the Word, come down in the [b]flesh[/b].
John 1:14 is one of the most important verses in the Bible. It reads: “The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.” The Word did not just appear to be human; the Word [b]became flesh[/b].
I believe you love God, with all my heart, but I think you missed God's real message in His Word, apparently not [u]believing[/u] in His Word. If you love Him.... and I know you do.....then please....[b]believe Him[/b]. All the things I have told you, are the things that Jesus taught people when he came to Earth. I'm just sharing with you what He taught. If any way other than his would have worked to save us, I'm sure he would have told us so, but he said no, "I am the way the truth and the life", and that [b]no man can come to His Father[/b], except BY HIM.
He also said, if we're ashamed of Him, He will be ashamed of us, before His Father in heaven.
@Axeroberts You talk about proof. I'm not here to prove anything but only to share the gospel of Christ, which He told His disciples to do. But Jesus DID come to prove who He was, when He came down from heaven and died on the cross, so that we could be saved. He not only [b]said[/b] He loves us, He [b]proved[/b] it by his actions. Yet, you say differently. Do you think he died on the cross in vain? I don't, because there are millions of people that have believed what Christ said and trusted in His Word, and have found salvation. Unless we trust in Him and His promises, Jesus said there [i]is[/i] no salvation. Salvation doesn't happen by wishful thinking. What makes you think your way is the better way? Jesus said his way was the only way. Why would you not believe him? He more than proved himself. He's not going to do that again.
“How shall we escape [b]if we neglect so great a salvation[/b], which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him …?”Hebrews 2:3.
We are called to such a great salvation.Jesus can save to theuttermost,those who come to God through Him. (Hebrews 7:25) You will not be judged because you are so wretched, but because you do not believe. “Yes,” you say, “but not all have faith.” Correct! Those who are unreasonable and wicked, do not believe. (2 Thessalonians 3:2) You cannot believe in this salvation and at the same time love this world.
Romans 6:23says, 'For the payment of sin is death, but the [u]gift of God[/u] is eternal life [u]in Christ Jesus our Lord[/u]. ' 'Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved' (Acts 4:12).
@BritishFailedAesthetic No! If you mean by that, that he is a false teacher, no I do not believe that. Do I believe he's been misled perhaps by someone down the line? Perhaps. I don't know where he is getting his philosophy from. I also don't know if he has read God's Word. If not, this causes many to be confused.
I see you added some to your question. Exactly! That's what I have been telling you all along. Our Salvation is not dependent on any religion! But what you're not understanding, is that Christianity is not a religion. It is a personal relationship with God. God could care less what denomination we belong to are group of people. It's not about that and it's not about performance. Christianity is described as people who follow Christ, not some world religion! We follow God's philosophy not man's. You're mixing the two and they don't mix.
'There is salvation in no one else, for there is [b]no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved[/b]. These are words of Peter addressed to the Jewish leaders as recorded in Acts 4:12.
But if you're sure that you know better than God, then do it your way.
SW-User
It becomes more and more obvious to anyone of common sense, spirituality and general Faith and trust in Reality, that those of the "only way" (Jesus) , in fact THEIR way, are way off beam. The story/myth of Jesus is simply one expression of an everlasting story.
To insist upon "narrow ways" is in fact to expound a way of salvation with so many absurd problems that we have to reel away in astonishment that anyone could subscribe to such a "plan".
What of those who have never heard of Jesus?
What of those who died before Jesus?
In answer, ridiculous epicycles of belief are added to the mix......Jesus goes down to those in hades and pronounces the Gospel to them etc etc. Imagine Jesus giving the Good News to a cro-magnon man or a neanderthal man (or woman) as they rise from their tomb!
@SW-User some of your points are what I mean. Some people who see Jesus as a human only. Profit or preacher perhaps should feel free to see God as they feel and not told what to believe
SW-User
@Axeroberts The point is that any "creator" is not "out there" or "up there" but [i]with us[/i]. With us, [i]as us. [/i]
In "eastern" faiths, [i]non-dualism[/i]
Faith/trust inevitably becomes [i]praxis[/i]. The Source is [i]there[/i] in suffering. In "uniting", becoming "one" with the Source, we are called to share in the suffering of others. Empathy. Not to judge or condemn, but to [i]share[/i].
Some don't realize the state of their own soul and why they need Jesus. Tell me who else can forgive our sins and why? Even the priest cannot forgive our sins because he has sin himself.
SW-User
Once we recognise the Universal Christ and the implications then "belief" can morph into Faith/Trust. Christ as the Source, Tao, Brahman. That the Source is "empty", "incomprehensible" and thus [i]with us, as us, in us, around us[/i] being [i]all things[/i] yet "nothing" of itself.
A Catholic scholar Heinrich Dumoulin has written:-
Whether, on its deepest ground, being is personal or impersonal, is something that humans will never be able to plumb by their rational powers. Here we face a decision which one makes according to one's own tradition and upbringing, and still more according to one's faith and experience. The Christian sees ultimate reality revealed in the personal love of God as shown in Christ, the Buddhist in the silence of the Buddha. Yet they agree on two things: that the ultimate mystery is ineffable, and that it should be manifest to human beings. The inscription on a Chinese stone figure of the Buddha, dated 746, reads......
"The Higest truth is without image.
If there were no image at all, however, there would be no way for truth to be manifested.
The highest principle is without words.
But if there were not words at all, how could principle possibly be revealed?"
@Axeroberts I think I initially missed your point of this whole post so I’d like to modify my response here. I believe you are asking why Christians (at least some of them) believe that you have to believe in Jesus or you will not be saved (from what I never understood since Jesus as a Jew didn’t really have a concept of hell and would have believed that your job was your works here and now) and that believing in a benevolent creator isn’t good enough if it doesn’t include the Bible and Jesus. I truly can’t answer that because that’s not what I believe at all. My guess would be that they have to defend their faith to the exclusion of all others, or else it will challenge the belief system they’ve created based on mistranslated Bible scripture into English and misunderstood verses. My personal faith is neither so exclusive nor fragile that it needs others to be argued away.
You are absolutely right. The name shouldn’t matter. Before 6000years there was life on earth. We will be around 1million years from now and Jesus will be forgotten. I meant not entirely forgotten but not worship by half the planet. Greeks would have laughed at you if you were to say Zeus would be forgotten.
@Roundandroundwego The only thing common among Jesus and these figures you mentioned seems to be related to coming back to life. Yet, for most of these figures, they were mythological than human. As such, I doubt if there were accounts of their death as recorded by a historian. To me, the concept that there is an afterlife, of life after death is common among so many cultures.
In Jesus' case, there were references to his baptism and crucifixion made by a Roman historian, Tacitus.
And who's this enemy that I am supposed to have cornered?
@IamCuriousBabe right. Each was born of a virgin Dec 25. Each was nailed to a tree and rose three days later. The astronomical meaning is clear. It's a lot like what pagans used to say in their temples, each Dec 25, almost every place. Even before it was called a month, or December. Thousands of years, even.
@Roundandroundwego [quote]Krishna, Lord Krishna of Hinduism is a figure who also was born of a virgin and founded a religion... Etc. Try watching Zeitgeist, the movie. It's very easy to follow.[/quote]
Sorry but God the Father does not recognize anyone but His Son, Jesus, as being born of the Virgin Mary, in His Word. It also says in God's Word that He appointed and approved only [u]one[/u] to be Savior of the world, that being Jesus Christ. Maybe your Lord Krishna founded a religion, but Jesus founded a personal relationship for us with Himself. Jesus was against the religious leaders and called them hypocrites because they were teaching the wrong gospel and claiming that one could be saved another way besides Jesus. They were also twisting their faces all up before crowds of people and making loud noises in order to fool the people into believing that they were so righteous and Jesus said there's none that can meet his standard of righteousness and that's what we need him for salvation. There [b]is no substitute for Jesus[/b] when it comes to salvation. Stop teaching false doctrine. No one knows better than God the Father what it takes to have salvation because he made the Plan of Salvation and it is not up to man to change that to his own ways of salvation. God said that will never work.
SW-User
Because Gods goodness cannot be corrupted or compromised.
@SW-User Neither can His Word. Am I right....You said Jesus is a [b]human[/b] creation? Then you're not believing God and His Word. God [b]had[/b] no beginning. He has always been. God's Word says so. He's no liar. And what is this about a cult? Are you saying Christianity is a cult?
@CrystalSkull The only church when I grew up that I knew indoctrinated kids, was the Catholic church/school. Not all Christians have been indoctrinated. I did not grow up Catholic and I did not go to the Catholic school. Even though I had attended the Baptist Church and Lutheran Church, I did not base my beliefs in God on that. I studied and read God's Word for myself, studied different ways that people believe in this world, but I made up my own mind, as to what I believed and [i]whom[/i] I believe in, based on God's Word. God is no liar. A person just can't go wrong trusting in Him and His truths. There's a lot of false teachers in this world. God warns against them. I have been a follower of Christ for the last 50 years and I wouldn't change a thing.
@LadyGrace that’s great for you. My point wasn’t that all kids are indoctrinated, my point was that if you grow up within certain belief systems you’re more likely to follow them as an adult. Regardless of the sect of Christian faith you still grew up in that society. So if for example you were born in the middle of Africa that practise different ancestor worship you’d be way more inclined to follow that belief system. Or if you were born in China etc.
I don’t think anyone thinks they have to believe in Jesus. The Genesis creation story, Noah and the ministry that Jesus had for three years before his crucifixion makes sense as far as overriding an existential crisis.
@Axeroberts I’m fortunate to live in a country that has freedom [i]from[/i] religion. Like I have said before, we’re all children of The Enlightenment and we can demand strong evidence before committing to belief. No going back.
@Roundandroundwego Why? Just because I didn't agree with you? How was I aggressive by giving my opinion? I call that discussion, not aggression. So delete me if you like.
