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God and the cosmic microwave background radiation

The cosmic microwave background radiation did not come from nothingness, wherefore it implicates the existence of God as the permanent self-existent creator and operator of everything that is not God Himself.

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yrger · 80-89, M

Hi Doc, you are running away from my challenge to you:
"As long as Doc doesn't answer this question, he is an intellectual coward:
"1. We ask ourselves, was there ever no instance of existence at all: yes or no or don't know."

Why are so you very paranoid with with intellectizing the idea of existencce?

I tell why: because it leads you inevitably to God existing.

DocSavage · M
WHAT PART OF ATHEIST DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?
I’ve heard of several versions of god, I found none of them compelling.
So what makes I’m going to narrow it down to one that matches yours?
If you have something that makes your god stand out above the rest, let’s hear it. So far your’s is the usual omnipotent, do anything spirit sky daddy.less the judgement set up. Not convincing.
1. We ask ourselves, was there ever no instance of existence
Why not ask how we can have a nothing instead ?

yrger · 80-89, M
Again, from Yrger to Doc:
You must have some idea of God, otherwise what are you taling about, with your attitude that there is no God at all.

Here, let us we two work together to determine whether God exists or not.

1. We ask ourselves, was there ever no instance of existence at all: yes or no or don't know.

Hi Doc, answer this question and show that you have som shred of intelligence.
1. We ask ourselves, was there ever no instance of existence at all: yes or no or don't know.

Hi members and readers of Similarworlds, the text below is totally irrevelavant:

DocSavage · M
Here, let us we two work together to determine whether God exists or not
Been there, done that. I’ve chased you over a dozen different threads. I already know your concept of god. And I’ve made myself clear when I said there isn’t any. One is as worthless as the others.
Further more, since it is impossible for anyone to know what preceded the Big Bang, it is irrelevant.
You have no working model for “nothing” so there is no way to say what, if anything preceded “existence” or what laws governed it.
We can only work within space and time.

As long as Doc doesn't answer this question, he is an intellectual coward:
"1. We ask ourselves, was there ever no instance of existence at all: yes or no or don't know."

DocSavage · M

(a) In the status in which status there had not yet existed the reality of all things with a beginning, there has been already existing the primordial reality of existence - yes or no?

Have you actually considered what kind of situation your god would be in, if your theory were accurate
Your god is self existing, correct ? Therefore he has no past . No knowledge, experience . He is spirit, no physical form. Before the Big Bang, there was no time and space. Complete, total nothingness.
Your god is permanent. Not surprising, as there is not time and space,
He can not change. Nor can he have any knowledge or concept of anything outside his own existence. He would have no physical senses of any kind. And there would be nothing for him to sense. Nothing other than he exist. There is no cause and effect, there is no way for him to know or even conceive the concept of a physical universe.
Intelligent design still requires planning. How can a god create something from nothing, using nothing , on a physical plane , where a spiritual being would have no power, knowledge, or understanding of physical reality ? You haven’t even made it to the Big Bang yet, and your theory falls apart.

raysid498950247 · 70-79, M

@DocSavage Alpha and Omega (June 4, 1944)

"We the Almighty's chief spirits: I, Alpha, ruler of the beginning, the past and present: I, Omega, ruler of the future and of death, and the promulgator of the Almighty's thoughts: speak unto you, the nations of Earth in the name of the Almighty."

"At one time only the immaterial spirit of the Almighty existed and matter, which, like fog, immobile and dead, filled the infinite space-immobile matter, within which lay equally immobile energy."

"Intolerable tranquility and unbearable silence reigned in the world."

This tranquility and silence had neither a purpose nor any sense. It was hostile and unbearable to the living spirit of the Almighty. The Almighty's spirit felt inconceivably lonely in this dead world of matter. It was intolerable for the Almighty's immortal spirit to live in this immobile and aimless world."

"Overcome by inexpressible despair, the Almighty, in extreme anger, shattered the world of matter. A cosmic storm arose. Matter was perturbed and began to move. The dormant energy within it arose, and maelstroms of matter started to whirl in the space of the world. The transformation of matter began."

"Once perturbed, matter could no longer stop and calm down. Nebulae came into being, these condensed still more, and so-called suns formed, which rushed through space with enormous speed. They collided and caused huge conflagrations of the universe. They rushed past each other, extracting huge tongues of fire from each other. They parted in the space of heaven, but, small stars-suns-were left behind them. On cooling down, these became hard and dark. Thus, planets came into being."

The Almighty bound matter within His laws, and began to investigate and form the world. As helpers for Himself, and so as not to be alone, He created spirits from His spirit. Yet He failed to achieve the second goal. He remained lonely, for the spirits created by Him were the very same He, merely split into many parts. Imagine, if you humans could split yourselves into several parts, would that save you from loneliness? All your parts would think and talk and act the same as you. Simply put, you would see yourself, multiplied innumerable times, reflected in a mirror with a cracked surface. In order for you to preserve yourself, and find a friend, you must use other means; you would have to bear children."

"On many planets the conditions became such that matter on them had harden into rock and soil. Clouds floated above Earth, it rained, river murmured, waterfalls roared, seas billowed and winds howled. It seemed that matter was alive, but so it only seemed. The spirits turned to the Almighty and said: You gave us to rule over stars and planets, but this rule has no purpose and no sense. Why does it rain on ground which is lifeless and empty? Why do rivers flow into seas, which are empty and insignificant?"

"Again, the Almighty felt alone and despaired. Yes, the space of the universe glittered with stars. Yes, there was eternal noise and movement of the planets. Yet all that still was and remained the very same lifeless matter, hostile and intolerable, dead matter."

"Time passed. Then the Almighty undertook an inconceivably great and difficult labor. He undertook a struggle with the very essence of matter. He decided to create living matter. After long, endlessly long, struggles, the great moment arrived when matter began to live. Atoms created the first molecules, and the dead matter began to live and to breathe. Living beings came into being. The ground became covered with grass and trees. The water, and the surface of earth, and even the air, became filled with insects, animals, fish, and birds."

"Now the Almighty and the spirits faced a task, to form this living matter in such a way that it could attain an ideal perfection. To form it so that it would be capable of comprehending the spirit and of ascending to him, and, having comprehended the spirit, would cease its hatred and would merge with the spirit for the realization of the loftiest goal, the creation of the most ideal world."

"One goal remained, though. The Almighty's desire not to be alone and to acquire for Himself spirits who would be capable of comprehending Him, and of helping Him in the formation of the world. This goal still remained unachieved."

"The Almighty began His second gigantic work of creation. He had given the animals a brain, that is, a complicated nerve center, for the animals had to move and seek food for themselves, as well as had to fight and adapt themselves to the demands of life and nature. With His spirit, He spiritualized this nerve center, which so far had been guided by instinct. He created man on Earth, and other beings, like him, on a few other planets, but not many. He formed a wonderful brain for man, and turned this wonderful thought-laboratory over to the spirit."

"The cycle of loneliness was concluded with that. The Almighty's spirits, on incarnating in human bodies, lead therein a struggle against the living and hostile matter. It however is, not a struggle of destruction, but a struggle of resurrection and transformation. The spirits give much to matter, and they themselves also receive much and transform. Thus, they are helping the Almighty to form an ideally perfect world and to conquer the inertia of matter its desire not to live and its hatred for His spirit, for having forced it to live and to move."

"Man's task is, by combining the strength of the spirit and of matter-the body-to rise above the existing laws of nature and to create the ideally perfect and eternal being. To create a being who will ascend to the level of divinity and jointly with the Almighty will undertake the further formation and ruling of the universe. Such is the goal and sense of human life. For the time being, while it still has not been possible to overcome matter and to form an immortal body, the spirits have to travel from one body to the next."

"The goal of humanity's life may still appear to you to be unexpectedly great and unachievable. However, that may only seem so, for man is guided by the Almighty's all surmounting and immortal spirit."

"With that, the Almighty achieves His goal, He, the Father, with the help of matter, the mother, has created for Himself a son-man, who will be He, and also not He."

"You need to keep one thing in mind, though. Now you have been given to comprehend the Almighty and the world created by Him, and to comprehend the Almighty's sense of creation, and the goal and sense of human life. While comprehending all this, you must comprehend for yourselves what you have to do, in order to achieve this goal."

"To those, who do, not wish to heed the call of the Almighty-to form the world and to reach the heights of the spirit-the Almighty, to them the Almighty neither promises Paradise, nor threaten them with Hell. He merely allows them, as unnecessary specks of dust, to drift through the window of the universe into the darkness of nonexistence."
"The Almighty divided Himself into two high spirits-God and Satan. They are visible to the spirits, and they are accessible to them. God has the right to up lift the spirit of living beings and of man, to illuminate him with light and love. He has been given the right of hearing man out and helping him."

"Satan has the right to evaluate man, to punish and to destroy him. Observing from man point of view, God possesses only all that is good, and Satan-all that is evil. Therefore, pray only to God, for the Almighty will not hear you out. Pray to God not with words, but with good deeds."

"We, the Almighty's chief spirits, Alpha and Omega, bring to you ten (original receivers of messages) and to all the people, the Almighty's blessings and the love of God."

“May you be bright as the sun, and strong as steel".

DocSavage · M

@raysid498950247
Still comes down to magic.
Not buying it.

DocSavage · M

You claimed god was self existent. No evolution from one form to another. Just a permanent spirit with no origin. Who then went on to create a reality completely physical and opposed to his own nature.
Created by nothing to create something from nothing.
Why not just skip god, and go to a self existent universe with no designer ? The end result is identical to a universe with a god, who does not manifest in any shape or form within his own creation.

yrger · 80-89, M

Doc says to Yrger:
You asked about god, not existence. We have physical, observable, testable evidence of reality.
Can you say the same about god ? I think not. You can dress it up all you want. It all . But it still comes down to magic.
No one has ever shown any evidence of the supernatural. And I’m not going to be embarrassed by the fact I don’t believe in it. Until you can show such a thing is even possible, no matter how unlikely. I’m good without a god.

Hi Doc, that text from you above, that's very good for you to prove God doesn't exist.

All you have to do now is to systematically arrange them into step after step of not more than 40 words per step, then - there, you have proven God does not exist.

yrger · 80-89, M
Hi Doc, you are an intellectual coward, with lots of vacuous bravado, but with no real work up to the present.

You see, today all knowers of God have the same explanation for everything existing, and it is that God created everything that is not God Himself.

If you Doc have as good an explanation for everything existing, then you will have done away with God.

For that kind of an endeavor, you must be systematic, go step by step, i.e., each step leads to the next, and thus finally you will have explained everything existing without God.

yrger · 80-89, M
Hi Doc, again I ask you:

What are you waiting for? I ask you to tell me step by step (each step taking no more than 40 words): how and why you come to know God does not exist.

Hi members and readers of Similarworlds, the man cannot write anything at all that is coherent. What he does all the time is to spew lots of gibberish from his septic tank of a brain.

Addressing Doc again:
You see, today all knowers of God have the same explanation for everything existing, and it is that God created everything that is not God Himself.

If you Doc have as good an explanation for everything existing, then you will have done away with God.

For that kind of an endeavor, you must be systematic, go step by step, i.e., each step leads to the next, and thus finally you will have explained everything existing without God.

yrger · 80-89, M

Hi Doc, you are again running away to your septic tank, I am talking about my God, not magic. Are you perhaps a robot but not programmed to know the context of the dialog?

The robot must be programmed by its master to know the concept of my God, namely: "God is the permanent or eternal self-existent creator and operator of everything that is not God Himself."

This robot must have been programmed wrongly by its master, who dwells in a septic tank, to distort my concept of God.

In sum, hi Doc, you never ever show God cannot exist - except your silly ridiculous distorted concept of God.

Conclusion: You are only attacking a strawman, that is what all atheists essentially are doing, attacking strawmen.

I theist Yrger suggest to you atheist Doc, that you attack my concept of God by insisting that God is not needed because: the universe exists permanently and eternally.

yrger · 80-89, M
From Yrger to Doc
Hi Doc, you are again running away from my challenge to you for us talking on the difference between fact and truth. Shame on you, go hide in your septic tank.

Hi Doc, and you are woefully mistaken about there is a difference between permanent and eternal (there is no difference), as in my definition of God:
God is the permanent or eternal self-existent creator and operator of everything that is not God Himself.

Now I propose that we talk about your best argument (if any) against God exists.

Do you accept my proposal?

Please don't go into incoherent vacuous verbosity, just say yes you accept or no you don't accept.

DocSavage · M
Ball is now in your court. I have answered your question. The proposal has been met. Your turn.
Give us your best argument for the existence of magic as relative to your god.
Spiritual entity, self existing, matter / energy conversion, knowledge, abilities all had to come from magical means . All of which would have to conform to a pre planned agenda in order to produce what we have now. Where did the magic come from ? Even god can’t do it by himself.
Do you accept the challenge, or will you wuss out ( again ) .

yrger · 80-89, M

Hi Doc, you are really an intellectual coward, I challlenge you to tell me

Okay - Doc, tell me: were time and space permanent/eternal? Tip to you, read physical cosmology.

And you take to flight like an idiot.

yrger · 80-89, M
Hi Doc, you are really pathetic in your deficiency of rational and intelligent thinking, that leads you to prejudicially downgrade the idea of God.

I ask you again and again what is your idea of God, now, I see clearly that you do have a most horribly downgrading idea of God.

You don't even have in your idea of God, that He is the creator and operator of everything that is not Himself - including time and space.

At the left side of the Big Bang at which point the material/physical universe starts existing, there is God (to the left), And to the right He makes everything, starting with time and space for the material/physical universe to exist in.

Hi dear members and readers of Similarworlds, no wonder Doc finds it easy to insist that God is not worthy of his acceptance, because according to Doc God did not create space and time.

You see, hi Doc, you are all the time attacking a strawman: because the God you are attacking is not the God Whom all God knowers recognize to be God, namely:
"God is the permanent/eternal self-existent creator and operator of everything that is not God Himself."

Space and time are made by God, that is why they exist.

Doc asks
God made time and space ?

I Yrger tell you, YES.

How did He do that?

I tell you, you have got to be God to know how.

More silly gratuitous downgrading of God from brain-deficient Doc:

Now how did he do that ? God is nothing but a fictional character in a book. He has no ability to do anything. He can’t even ward off a vampire. So how could god do anything like create an entire universe ? Where did he get such power. How does it work ? Where did it come from. Why did he do it ? As most of all, why should anyone believe it ?

Okay - Doc, tell me: were time and space permanent/eternal? Tip to you, read physical cosmology.

yrger · 80-89, M

Hi Doc, you are again running away from the present topic of our dialog:

Okay, again, answer this question from me, assuming that you are of some intelligence, "Will existence cease to exist?"

yrger · 80-89, M
Hi Doc, you tell me:
1. You claimed god was self existent.
2. No evolution from one form to another.
3. Just a permanent spirit with no origin.
4. Who then went on to create a reality (i) completely physical and (ii) opposed to his own nature.

You are wrong in No. 4 (i) and No. 4 (ii) in regard to man.

Man has a spirit or soul in him and also intelligence.

And man with intelligence comes to know God exists as the permanent or eternal self-existent creator and operator of everything that is not God Himself.

Hi Doc, assuming that you are intelligent, how and why you do not come to know God exists?

================================

One thing is certain, hi Doc, you are not intelligent. Consider Isaac Newton, probably the greatest intelligent person in history, and a scientist at that, he knew God exists.

Okay, again, answer this question from me, assuming that you are of some intelligence, "Will existence cease to exist?"

DocSavage · M

[@yrgersackofshit

Isaac Newton is known for his work not for his beliefs. Another of your pointless points.

DocSavage · M

WTF are you going on about ?
I already answered your question. Then you asserted that god made time and space. Which I challenged you to prove. As usual you failed to do so.
A claim made without evidence can be refuted without evidence. You want to continue discussing existence, provide a reason for why and/or how your god should get the credit for it.
Otherwise you’re just going around in circles. And wasting everyone’s time.

DocSavage · M

No, I’ve already heard your description of god. I’ve already pointed out numerous impractical flaws in it too. You claim to use reason and intelligence, but the god you believe in is neither reasonable nor intelligent.
But, like all theist, you ignore it. Your god is omnipotent, so you continue to assert whatever, no matter how nonsensical it is.
The fact that you claim god made a creation that is completely alien and opposite his own nature is a perfectly legitimate observation. You provided no answers. Each time you failed, you tossed in things like “love” and morality into the mix. Both of which would be meaningless to the entity you claim. The Devil, is in the details in this case. Too many questions pop up . And no matter how powerful your god is, you just can’t make it work. So there’s no point in debating further. You’ll just ignore the hard question with another straw man. Fallacies are all you got.

DocSavage · M

Into affirmative statements, thus:
(a1) God can lift any rock however heavy He makes it.
(b1) God is self-existently permanent.

Are you completely brain dead ?
The whole point of the omnipotent paradox, is to demonstrate that absolute omnipotence is a logical absurdity. If god can not preform these task, it means there is a limit to his powers, and that actual omnipotence cannot exist.
Several people have come up with what they consider solutions to the paradox. Omnipotent is redefined as logically powerful, god can do what is necessary. This still puts a limit to his power, but irrational or nonsensical task are irrelevant . ( he could do them if he wanted to, but there’s no point to it )
Of course, all this is meaningless. Such a being cannot logically exist in reality. And only exist as a man made concept to explain the unexplained.
Turning the paradox into affirmatives , defeats the purpose of the questions. So once again you are wasting our time.
Call me when you come up with a thread worth my while.

yrger · 80-89, M

Now - I Yrger theist like to talk about the idea of sacrifice to God.
Does God really demand that mankind should offer sacrifices of all kinds to God, predominantly of living things, including one's own children?

I don't think so. That is the way humans do, in order to convince other humans, that they are sincere and honest - for example, a man will give up his car to the father of a girl he wants to marry for a wife.

I wrote above, ". . . for example, a man will give up his car to the father of a girl he wants to marry for a wife."

I want to take back that example, it is ridiculous because it indicates that the man is buying the woman by paying her father with a car.

Hi everyone in similarworlds.com, at this point, I Yrger theist seek to investigate how mankind came to his concept of God.

At the dawn of intelligence in mankind, the smartest man happened to be also the strongest man. So, he ruled over the people living in the same place he lived in.

Over a long time mankind then imagined that there exists God in the heavens, the most intelligent and powerful entity that rules them from heavens.

So that today, there is the most acceptable idea, namely, that there is only one God. This concept is common among Christians, Muslims, and Orthodox Jews. And these three peoples are the rulers of the whole world.

However, Christians, Muslims, and Orthodox Jews still have the naive psychology of mankind, that of offering gifts to their rulers to please them, or to appease them.

So similarly they regard God to be interested in receiving gifts from mankind, to make God happy or appease God, and God Himself correspodingly demands gifts from mankind.

There, that is the basis of what we now call sacrifice.

On my part, from reason and intelligence I know God exists, and He is not keen on sacrifices, because He does't need them.

God just loves to create everything that mankind needs, and we simply just have to express gratitude to Him.

And I will go further, that we can also build temples of gratitude to Him, and we call this behavior, worship.

What do you members of similarworlds.com say about my exposition?

DocSavage · M

I Yrger ask/tell you Doc:
On your No 1. - where do you know that permanent and eternal are different? Please prove it, or go away: you are full of gratuitous lies.
On your No 2. - is there no other kind of time except linear? You are full of gratuitous lies.
On your No. 3. - how and why do you determine what God can or cannot do? You are full of gratuitous lies.
On your No. 4 - how and why do you determine what God can or cannot do? You are full of gratuitous lies.

1) Read a dictionary
2) what kind of time are you talking about, if not linear? Where in any of your past threads have you even suggested god in the future context ?
3) How can you determine what god can or cannot do ? Copy it from the bible. Not the same god according to you.
4) How and why do you determine what god can and cannot do ? You’re making up things as you go. Proving your ignorance. Nether the word permanent or eternal refer to time travel or future sight. They both describe an unchanging state. The god of the bible is as the alpha and the omega. The beginning and the end. You said your god is only the beginning. The ultimate starting point of everything.
I told you before, your god was too Christian, but not where it counts.
Now you have to start all over again , give your god all the powers he needs to get the job done. Just like all the other man made gods.

Just like I said back then ! You lose again.

yrger · 80-89, M

Hi Doc, you are deliberately avoiding to react to my last message (A) to you below, by going into a different topic (B) - in very bad faith.

Okay, let you now choose what you want to dwell on, and stop your septic tank dishonesty.

A
yrger · 80-89, M
From Doc
You said god doesn’t need a first or ultimate cause. If he doesn’t , then why would the universe ?

Hi Doc, you are so ignorant about the universe substituting for God, you see the universe has a beginning at the Big Bang - besides, it is material/physical, it is composed ultimately of material/physical particles: so it needs God to create the particles and assemble them into everything, making up the material/physical universe, that includes you and me.

From Yrger
Do you (Doc) intend to go on and on and on with other natural processes, without getting to an ultimate uncaused first cause?

From Doc
You said god doesn’t need a first or ultimate cause. If he doesn’t , then why would the universe ? And if god was created by some other entity then that entity could have just skipped the middleman, and went straight to reality. Didn’t you think it strange that god’s sole reason for existing is to make everything out of nothing ? Something or someone must have designed him for that purpose. Or the could have just set off the Big Bang without him. Your god is an unnecessary step. Who needs him ?
Utter vacuous blah blah blah . . .

B
DocSavage · M
1. We ask ourselves, was there ever no instance of existence at all: yes or no or don't know

Asked and answered. It won’t work. Your definition of god means that the universe doesn’t need a creator.
You’re going to have to show that such a being exist with that ability. No one has ever shown evidence of magic .you’re no exception.

yrger · 80-89, M

Hi DocSavage, I tell you time and again that there is the ultimate reality and that is God, the permanent self-existent creator and operator of everything that is not God Himself.

I ask you, DocSavage, why is there something instead of nothing?

Suggested answer for you from Yrger: Because there is no such thing as nothingness, the reality is that there is the default status which is the existence of God, the permanent self-existent creator and operator of everything that is not God Himself.

You will ask me now, why does not God create a better world for mankind, my answer:
God decides to not produce a better world for mankind, but He wills that mankind by His (from God) gifts of reason and intelligence will work together to render the world given by God to mankind, will become better and better and better - no more wars and anger and hatred and all kinds of wickedness, that mankind is prone to by mankind's abuse of free will.

DocSavage · M
Where and how did god ultimately come from ? He is permanent and self-existent.

If god used radioactive material to make the universe, why didn’t he use it to make people too. God chooses what and how and why to do what He does, if you be God, then you go and do a better job, otherwise be rich in wisdom with humility - you are DocSavage not God

You said the background cosmic radiation implies god. If it’s not there, then god didn’t do it, because god is not there. Wrong logic owing to wrong premise, the correct premise is that God is permanent and self-existent etc etc etc etc . . .

Make up your mind ( what there is of it ) Now you are getting childish with ad hominems.

DocSavage · M

[@yrger/sackofshit

He is permanent and self-existent

Which is the same thing you claim is impossible. If it’s impossible for us it’s impossible for god. Or if it’s possible for god, then the rest of the universe can do it. No reason it can’t
Theist, like you tend to ignore the impossible when it’s inconvenient.

yrger · 80-89, M

Hi Doc, you are getting incoherent, all the signs of insanity.

Hi members and readers of Similarworlds, don't pay any attention to this mad man, you will notice the foaming of vomit from his mouth, polluting the the clean rational intelligent milieu of Similarworlds.

From theist Yrger:
Now, who made the particles and assembled them? Who else, but God!

From atheist Doc:
You haven’t ruled out quantum foam , gravity, physics, thermodynamics, Casper the friendly ghost, Bugs Bunny, Woody Woodpecker, Bullwinkle Moose, Dumbldor , Mr. Spock, Amos & Andy, Pixies , Genies, Necromancers, Cthulhu, Azeroth, Ymir, Jack Sprat, Philip Marlow , Sam Spade, Gandoff, Godzilla, Gamera, Mothra, Rodan, Sidney Greenstreet,
James Cagney, Bette Davis, Green M&Ms, John Wick, John Constantine, Lex Luther, Pinky and The Brain, Moe Howard, Buster Keaton, Slug McGerk, Merlin, Little Orphan Annie, Betty Boop, Bozo The Clown, Mary Poppins, Fred Mertz, Uncle Charlie, Aunt May, Alfred Pennyworth, Red Licorice,Jeeves, Otis B Driftwood, Prof. Plum, Col. Mustard, Wilson Flisk, Henry Cabot Henhouse lll, Tom Slick, Porky Pig, Puff the Magic Dragon , etc, etc. etc.
There just as much evidence for any of them according to you. You haven’t shown one single thing that proves your god even exist, let alone has the ability to create partials, and assemble them into what we have today. You still have to prove your claim , otherwise you’re wasting time and space.

DocSavage · M

[@yrgersackofshit
Answer truthfully: can you show that none of the above had no part in the creation of the universe?

yrger · 80-89, M

Some pages earlier in God Is Not Great, Hitchens also invoked Occam's razor.[8] Michael Kinsley noted in 2007 in The New York Times that Hitchens was rather fond of applying Occam's razor to religious claims,[9] and according to The Wall Street Journal's Jillian Melchior in 2017, the phrase "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence" was "Christopher Hitchens's variation of Occam's razor".[10]

Hitchens's razor has also been called "a modern version" of the Latin proverb quod grātīs asseritur, grātīs negātur ("what is freely asserted can be freely deserted"),[11] also rendered as "what is asserted without reason (or proof), may be denied without reason (or proof)",[12] a saying attested no later than the 17th century.[13] Another comparable saying is the legal principle attributed to the Roman jurist Julius Paulus Prudentissimus (c. 2nd–3rd century CE), Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat[14]—"Proof lies on he who asserts, not on he who denies".[15] This principle has traditionally been connected to the presumption of innocence in English law, but in the 1980s philosopher Antony Flew* argued that it was also an adequate preliminary axiom in debates about the existence of God, claiming that "the presumption of atheism" was justified until a theist could come up with good evidence in favour of the existence of a god.[16]

Vid Wikipedia

*This previous atheist later came to the conclusion that reason and intelligence prove the existence of God.

DocSavage · M

You also aware that things that do not exist , also do not impact the senses

There you go again. Taking things out of context and putting words in my mouth.
You said science doesn’t recognize things that don’t impact their senses. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
I said things that actually do not exist, also do not impact the senses.
If you are suggesting that a god entity can or does exist, but is beyond our ability to sense. That is logically a possibility. BUT if you’re going to make the claim, you still need some evidence to back it up.
You’re giving your god the credit for creating and running the entire cosmos. What more than a “argument from ignorance “ fallacy do you have to support such a claim ? Nothing.
Such a being is against all the laws of physics and thermodynamics.
It’s up to you to explain how the impossible is possible.

DocSavage · M

so it needs God to create the particles and assemble them into everything, making up the material/physical universe

No it doesn’t. If god doesn’t need anything to make him, neither does the universe. You haven’t explained the double standards. What did god used to make to create the particles ? He’s a spirit. How can he manipulate them into a physical form, when he doesn’t have one himself ? And if he has the power to create, why didn’t he create after his own kind , like all the life forms do ? A physical universe would be the complete opposite to his own non physical existence. Factor in all the time it took for abiogenesis and evolution, and you’re talking billions of years before a suitable environment. Which would also have no meaning to a spirit.
Nope. Just doesn’t work. Too impractical for a god. After all, according to you it was just an art project. Why wait, when there’s no one to impress ?

yrger · 80-89, M

Hi Doc, where do I ever say that

. . . . everything has a cause . . . ?

Please quote my verbatim words on what you say that I say.

I see time and again that you are woefully defective with reason and intelligence.

Here, I will now give you a simple test on reason and intelligence: tell me, is there such a cause that is caused by another cause, which itself is also caused by another cause, ad infinitum?

yrger · 80-89, M
Hi Doc, now I am addressing you:
I will now talk (to you) about the uncaused cause, and the fallacy of infinite redress.

I appeal to your reason and intelligence, can you comprehend an uncaused cause?

On the other hand, can you comprehend a cause that is caused by another cause, which itself is also caused by another cause, ad infinitum?

yrger · 80-89, M
Hi members and readers in Similarworlds, I will now talk about the uncaused cause, and the fallacy of infinite redress.

I appeal to your reason and intelligence, can you comprehend an uncaused cause?

On the other hand, can you comprehend a cause that is caused by another cause, which itself is also caused by another cause, ad infinitum?

DocSavage · M
You keep saying that god was uncaused. So, I have a fictitious example of it. Still doesn’t work.
You can’t argue everything has a cause, (I yrger never say that!) when you break your own rule with god. That is special pleading, the most common fallacy with believers. You want the impossible to be possible, but only under the conditions that follow your belief. Complete nonsense.

DocSavage · M

Not going to waste anymore time with it. As I said from the very beginning, a creator god is impractical. Your’s is even more so. But, like every theist, you simply change your story , giving your god whatever power to cancel out the holes in your theory. There is no point in discussing it further, because you can never admit “I don’t Know”
You will make your god that much more omnipotent to cover what makes absolutely no sense. Plus there’s the fact, that you demonstrated a willful ignorance and disregard for any alternatives to your god. Scientific or otherwise.
As before, for centuries you have god do whatever you tell him to do, to make yourself right all the time. I have little patience for narcissists.

yrger · 80-89, M

Hi atheist DocSavage, before I theist Yrger prove to you God exists, we must first at least have the same idea of God, otherwise we could be talking about different things. Of course you don't accept God exists, but I do.

Can you though atheist exercise genuine reason and intelligence and pure logic?

For example, you say there is no ice cream parlor at the corner but I say there is, so finally I ask you "Do you know what is an ice cream parlor? And you tell me, "No, never see one at all."

DocSavage · M
I’ve repeatedly stated no god. You have not met your burden of proof on any of the afore mentioned characteristics. Including existence.
No god
No self existence
Not permanent
Not in control not , operating anything or anyone. Not even himself.
You have not shown any evidence suggesting the existence of god, or supporting the claim that god’s continuing existence, is necessary for our own.
And you haven’t addressed any of the questions put to you.
There is nothing to discuss or debate, because Yrger theist is incapable of giving rational answers even to his own questions.

yrger · 80-89, M
Hi atheist DocSavage, I theist Yrger invite us together to figure out whatever is in charge of everything.

From my part, it is "God the permanent self-existent reality and creator/operator of everything that is not Himself."

What about from your part?

DocSavage · M

[@yrgersackofshit

And you tell me, "No, never see one at all."

No, the ice cream parlor closed two years ago , the owner got Covid and died. It’s now a vape shop.
I’ll answer questions myself.

DocSavage · M

Actually, I never practiced or followed any religion. I became interested in mythology at an early age, and consider all religions including Christianity to myth. Having an education in world views, helps develop an open mind. And make better choices.
Judging from your lack of basic science, and you inability to honestly answer questions, I suspect you to be a fundamentalist Christian, with 90% being just plain mental. Christian also have a habit of avoiding responsibility for their beliefs.
As to your question about permanent existence. Who gives a sh!t ?
What does it prove ?
And , to any readers who may be watching. Scroll back a bit, and you will see yrger here, begging me to go away. And as I told him, I don’t run.

yrger · 80-89, M

Hi Doc, you are really pathetic in your deficiency of rational and intelligent thinking, that leads you to prejudicially downgrade the idea of God.

I ask you again and again what is your idea of God, now, I see clearly that you do have a most horribly downgrading idea of God.

You don't even have in your idea of God, that He is the creator and operator of everything that is not Himself - including time and space.

At the left side of the Big Bang at which point the material/physical universe starts existing, there is God (to the left), And to the right He makes everything, starting with time and space for the material/physical universe to exist in.

Hi dear members and readers of Similarworlds, no wonder Doc finds it easy to insist that God is not worthy of his acceptance, because according to Doc God did not create space and time.

You see, hi Doc, you are all the time attacking a strawman: because the God you are attacking is not the God Whom all God knowers recognize to be God, namely:
"God is the permanent/eternal self-existent creator and operator of everything that is not God Himself."

Space and time are made by God, that is why they exist.

Doc asks

God made time and space ?

I Yrger tell you, YES.

How did He do that?

I tell you, you have got to be God to know how.

More silly gratuitous downgrading of God from brain-deficient Doc:

Now how did he do that ? God is nothing but a fictional character in a book. He has no ability to do anything. He can’t even ward off a vampire. So how could god do anything like create an entire universe ? Where did he get such power. How does it work ? Where did it come from. Why did he do it ? As most of all, why should anyone believe it ?

Okay - Doc, tell me: were time and space permanent/eternal? Tip to you, read physical cosmology.

DocSavage · M

Hi atheist DocSavage, you are not saying anything at all to my question, "what started everything if not God."

Not my job to answer it. I’m not the one making the claim, you are.
You claim your god is self existing and permanent. Which is impossible by the laws of physics and thermodynamics. I didn’t ask what started everything. I asked you to explain how something this is impossible is possible . I asked for examples showing that the impossible is possible as you claim. And what do you do ? You try to pass the buck.
If you’re going to use a magic sky daddy as your answer, why did you stop calling it Yahweh or Jehovah ?
As a Christian, you could hide behind the bible, and block me for blasphemy. Throwing away religion, leaves you wide open to everything science. Religion’s worse nightmare.

yrger · 80-89, M

Hi Doc, you are an intellectual coward, with lots of vacuous bravado, but with no real work up to the present.

You see, today all knowers of God have the same explanation for everything existing, and it is that God created everything that is not God Himself.

If you Doc have as good an explanation for everything existing, then you will have done away with God.

For that kind of an endeavor, you must be systematic, go step by step, i.e., each step leads to the next, and thus finally you will have explained everything existing without God.

yrger · 80-89, M
Hi Doc, again I ask you:

What are you waiting for? I ask you to tell me step by step (each step taking no more than 40 words): how and why you come to know God does not exist.

Hi members and readers of Similarworlds, the man cannot write anything at all that is coherent. What he does all the time is to spew lots of gibberish from his septic tank of a brain.

Addressing Doc again:
You see, today all knowers of God have the same explanation for everything existing, and it is that God created everything that is not God Himself.

If you Doc have as good an explanation for everything existing, then you will have done away with God.

For that kind of an endeavor, you must be systematic, go step by step, i.e., each step leads to the next, and thus finally you will have explained everything existing without God.

DocSavage · M

[@yrgersackofshit
Step by step ?
God can’t even make past square one.

DocSavage · M

Bollocks !
You said god is spirit, not substance. You’re changing your story again
That fallacy is known as moving the goal post.
You are saying our existence is evidence of a god that can not be shown to exist himself. That is circular reasoning. Much like saying the Bible is proof of god’s will, because the Bible say it is.
You keep asking me to define what evidence is needed to prove god. You should be telling us. That is shifting the burden of proof.
You say I’m not talking about the right god. Strawman fallacy.
You are using the same bullshit every creationist uses. Magic . god just conjured everything into existence, is spite of all the laws of physics that make it impossible. Just another cheap Yahweh knock off.

DocSavage · M

arbitrariety (ipse dixit), which does not speak well of you at all - for it is a vice as opposed to a virtue. Unless you are a law to yourself in society, like you will steal and kill as long as you can get away withit - i.e. not get caught. That makes you a monster.

Now, why don’t you explain to anyone who may be observing, how Atheist are arbitrary? Society has never had any trouble with me. I haven’t stole anything from anyone. I haven’t killed anyone. And if I had, it’s not going to be god that holds me accountable.
If you remember, you insisted that you are not talking about the Christian god. Therefore, no judgement, no Hellfire, no eternal suffering.
Even if I did believe, I still have nothing to fear .
It’s also your claim, that god is in control of everything. Including people , including Atheist. Any vice is by his doing. Not mine. Makes him a real bastard, doesn’t it. Doesn’t speak well of you either.

DocSavage · M

Ok, proof that god does not exist. Using yrger’s playbook .
The supernatural and magic do not exist. God could not self exist unless he was supernatural, and could not create the universe without using magic. Therefore god can not be self existing, permanent, or in control of anything or anyone.
Yrger stated that something can not come from nothing. There is no reason god should be except from that rule.
God can not exist , therefore he does not.
First, he gets the idea of God all wrong, because to him God and magician are identical, which is totally nonsensical: because God is all honesty, truthfulness, and reality, while a magician is essentially a trickster.

Second, to be logical he DocSavage atheist must get his idea of God from theists like myself, otherwise he is into attacking a strawman.

Ok, first, as you can see, I never stated or implied god was in any way
God was identical to a magician/ trickster. A common trick of theist is to put words into other people mouth . Theist can’t stand the fact that they have no facts. They lie and call it faith.
Second, I was an Atheist long before I even understood what it truly means. I have a greater understanding of both god and religion as a result.
Yrger’s idea of a god , like himself is the most pathetic version I ever encountered. He can’t even keep his story straight. He makes Eric Hovind look good.

DocSavage · M

Modesty aside, the man has lost the debate with me on the topic:

What debate ?
The Big Bang happened. No one says otherwise. We knew the universe is expanding. Nothing new there.
CMBR we know about that. Evidence that supports the Big Bang theory no problem with that either.
The Big Bang is the best , current origin model for the universe in its present state. Nothing wrong there .
There was no debate on any of those subjects. Pretty much agreed on all It.
However, there is one thing we do not agree on. And that is that god was involved in any part of the process. From pre-Big Bang to CMBR.
you will not slip that little lie in unchallenged.
I repeat, to make it completely clear: NO GOD INVOLVED.

DocSavage · M

I’ve repeatedly stated no god. You have not met your burden of proof on any of the afore mentioned characteristics. Including existence.
No god
No self existence
Not permanent
Not in control not , operating anything or anyone. Not even himself.
You have not shown any evidence suggesting the existence of god, or supporting the claim that god’s continuing existence, is necessary for our own.
And you haven’t addressed any of the questions put to you.
There is nothing to discuss or debate, because Yrger theist is incapable of giving rational answers even to his own questions.

DocSavage · M

Permanent is not the same as eternal. Other religions make their gods capable of existing past, present, and future. That way their gods have some kind of agenda. Last time I asked you, you claimed god made creation as an art project. So, when your god came into existence, he was a blank slate. No history, no experience, no way to know anything about what effects there would be when time and space started. No blueprint or working model for a physical reality. Probably killed himself in the process, which is the real reason we don’t see any evidence.
He’s not there because he’s not there.

DocSavage · M

Do you really want to return to the claim from you that there is no evidence for the existence of God? In which case you must define what is evidence.

The terms of evidence are simple. You made the claim god exist, that god and existence are identical, and that said god created everything from himself, and he is in control of the whole .
There is no evidence that existence is anything other than existence. Where do you see proof that existence is intelligent itself ?
Where do you see proof that existence was intentionally created ?
Where do you see proof that the functions and/or actions of the universe are being controlled by some alien intelligence ?
Your answer, the totally unsubstantiated belief that a god must exist to make it all work. And where does this belief come from ? From all the primitive, man made religions of human history. They needed a god to make it happen , and you’re just taking customizing the details to suit your ego. You even give god a personality and claim he is the source of human emotions , which he himself would have no understanding.
So, if you want a definition of what evidence is, demonstrate each of the characteristics you claim to recognize.
I myself, have no need to provide evidence for something that does not manifest in reality, and can not be perceived or describe as anything other than natural phenomena.

yrger · 80-89, M

Hi everyone in similarworlds.com, I Yrger theist am telling you that I have investigated the issue God exists or not.

And I have reached the following findings based on reason and intelligence:

1. God and existence are identical.
2. God is permanent i.e. eternal.
3. God is self-existent i.e. not dependent on anything at all for His existence.
4. There are two kinds of existence: (a) Self-existence which is the existence of God, (b) depedent existence which is everything that is not God.
5. Dependent existence owes its existence to the existence of God, i.e. all instances of dependent existence come about from the creation act of God.
6. God is the medium existence, which all other instances of existence survive in.
7. Summing up: God is the permanent i.e. eternal self-existent reality creator and operator of everything that is not God Himself.

In num 6 I say that:
"God is the medium existence, which all other instances of existence survive in."

And in num 1 I say that:
"God and existence are identical."

So, if we imagine that God's existence is a vast endless ocean of water, then we are all and everything not God Himself, we are like fish swimming in water, and the water is God.

Perhaps that is why someone in the New Testament of Christians states that:
"In Him (God) we live and move and have our being." Acts 17:28

yrger · 80-89, M

Hi everyone member of similarworlds.com, I guess DocSavage is not interested in what I like him and me to talk about, namely, the concept of first cause.

So, I am inviting any human like myself member of similarworlds.com, to engage in the dialogue on first cause.

Regrettably, I might have to just abstain from interacting with DocSavage for the time being.

(From Yrger, again and again)

Hi DocSavage atheist, you and I Yrger theist are talking about the first cause in re God exists or not, but I notice that you keep on and on and on and on skewing from sharing with me your idea of first cause, so I will take the initiative to present my idea of first cause:

First cause in re God exists or not is the idea that there exists a cause that is permanent and self-existent from which all other causes depend for their existence as causes.

Hi DocSavage, what is your concept of first cause?

Please do not plunge into what evidence etc etc etc for the existence of first cause, just state categorically if you have any concept at all.

So, addressing everyone reading this exchange between me Yrger theist and DocSavage atheist, what you must want to read is the idea of first cause from me Yrger theist and from DocSavage atheist.

DocSavage · M

So, you agree with me that evolution is a process, but how did you come to the idea that God cannot make it work, in which case you have a wrong concept of God

You agreed with me that evolution is a process. I never said otherwise. I also agreed that evolution is a byproduct of another process.
Unlike you, I understand how it works, which is why I know your god can’t do it. There are a number of different reasons. But your god lacks two of the most basic. And nothing you say will change that.
You don’t know natural selection, you don’t know C-2. You don’t know why god can’t do it. I know all of that.

You can make up your own rules as you go. But they’re still lies. And they can be proved.

yrger · 80-89, M

Hi Doc, you say:
Evolution is a process, however, according to you. Your god lacks the necessary ability to start it and make it work.

So, you agree with me that evolution is a process, but how did you come to the idea that God cannot make it work, in which case you have a wrong concept of God.

However, you have not answered me whether ultimately (attention to the word ultimately) there is a pemanent self-grounded entity beyond which none further exists.

DocSavage · M

[@yrgersackofshit
I’ll give you a little hint. Your god is still too Christian, but not where it counts.
I’m not a Christian, never was. So I know what you can’t see.

DocSavage · M

[@yrgersackofshit

However, you have not answered me whether ultimately (attention to the word ultimately) there is a pemanent self-grounded entity beyond which none further exists

Still don’t understand what Atheism means, do you ?
No entity, no god, no supernatural beings. What part of that eludes you ?

yrger · 80-89, M

yrger · 80-89, M
DocSavage · M
let me ask you if there is existence that is permanent and self-grounded. -Yrger

What has this have to do with evolution ? Evolution is all about change.
What has permanent existence have to do with anything. ?
===============

Hi Doc, you and I are different in our reason and intelligence, in that you have some reasoning ability but no intelligence, while I have intelligence.

Intelligence consists in seeing the whole picture of anything like for example evolution, I examine it up to the question of where does it belong to, in the complete reality of existence, up to the question of its source in the reality of an entity, that is permanent and self-grounded.

Is there an entity that is permanent and self-grounded? Of course there is, otherwise nothingness exists at all.
=================

How do I Yrger prove that there is an entity that is permanent and self-grounded, simple - because if not then nothing exists which gives rise to all other instances of existence.

You Doc are really woefully deficient in intelligent thinking.

Okay, tell me - Doc, from what reality do we come from ultimately, we who are not permanent self-grounded entities?

yrger · 80-89, M

Robert Jastrow (1925-2008) Knownfor Planetary science, Astronomy, Astrophysics. He wored at the Goddard Institute for Space Studies.

With the discovery of the Big Bang, Jastrow began to hold a belief that, if there was a beginning to the universe, there was also a Creator.

In an interview with Christianity Today, Jastrow said "Astronomers now find they have painted themselves into a corner because they have proven, by their own methods, that the world began abruptly in an act of creation to which you can trace the seeds of every star, every planet, every living thing in this cosmos and on the earth. And they have found that all this happened as a product of forces they cannot hope to discover. That there are what I or anyone would call supernatural forces at work is now, I think, a scientifically proven fact."[7]

In his book, God and The Astronomers he illustrated his position as: “For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance, he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” [8]

WIKIPEDIA

yrger · 80-89, M

Hi all members of similarworlds.com.

I Yrger theist am telling you that I have investigated the issue God exists or not.

And I have reached the following findings based on reason and intelligence:

1. God and existence are identical.
2. God is permanent i.e. eternal.
3. God is self-existent i.e. not dependent on anything at all for His existence.
4. There are two kinds of existence: (a) Self-existence which is the existence of God, (b) depedent existence which is everything that is not God.
5. Dependent existence owes its existence to the existence of God, i.e. all instances of dependent existence come about from the creation act of God.
4. God is the medium existence in which all other instances of existence survive in.
5. Summing up: God is the permanent i.e. eternal self-existent reality creator and operator of everything that is not God Himself.

I theist Yrger state in num 1 that "God and existence are identical."

How do I explain that God and existence are identical?
Like this:
1. In the situation in which there were no universe and no mankind existing yet, there is already existence.
2. Why is there aleady existence?
3. Simple: because if there was no existence then nothingness is the default status of reality, and that means no universe and no mankind and it is all emptiness, so that we would not be in similarworlds.com, as there also would be no similarworlds.com.
4. As there are now the universe and us mankind and us and the universe have a beginning, that both implicate that there is the default status of existence which is reality, and there is reality which is the default status of existence.
5. This primordial default status of reality/existence is eternal and self-existent, and it is the cause of everything that is not self-existent.
6. We now call this primordial reality/existence, God - the creator cause of everything that is not God Himself.
7. There! That explains why God and existence/reality are identical.

yrger · 80-89, M

Hi everyone members of similarworlds.com, you do notice that DocSavage is as usual into evading the present issue, namely, you and I and everyone, do we concur that we exist or not.

Now as usual he is but futilely entrapping me, into a nonsensical debate on burden of proof and blah, blah blah blah . . .

Let him DocSavage just keep to the issue at present,

The issue now is that he and I and we all, we all exist - otherwise how could we be here in this forum board of similarworlds.com?

------------------

yrger · 80-89, M
Hi everyone members of similarworlds.com, you do notice that DocSavage atheist has no positive claim on anything at all.

I am Yrger theist, I claim that I exist, what about you, DocSavage atheist, do you or don't you agree with me that you and I exist?

Take notice, everyone, DocSavage will now employ a lot of verbiage, in order to avoid answering my question or invitation to him, that we concur he and I we exist.

So, for the time being, we all including me Yrger and DocSavage, we will shelf the question on God exists or not.

And hi everyone, just don't give any attetion to DocSavage's gambit, that the party making a claim should bear the burden of proof, the man as usual is a liar and a coward and a cheat.

The issue now is that he and I and we all, we all exist - otherwise how could we be here in this forum board of similarworlds.com?

DocSavage · M

That is not the answer of a human being with reason and intelligence, except perhaps a robot badly programmed by its master, because something cannot come from nothing.

Nonsense. You asked what entity created time and space. As if it were a deliberate, organized plan rather than the result of natural forces and processes. You said that the event was beyond your comprehension. So you can not say there was such an entity. That was a lie
You say something can not come from nothing. In which case god can’t do it either. There is no reason for the double standards. That was another lie.
Since all you do is lie about god, creation , time and space. Why should anyone believe a word from you ? It’s not like you have any evidence to back it up.

DocSavage · M

You are woefully mistaken, I never change essentially my definition of God, here it is again: "God is the permanent i.e. eternal self-existent creator and operator of everything that is not God Himself."
1[quote] Do Protestant Christians know about the God of nature as distinct from the God of supernature?

And a few more of your past post :
2My latest definition of God
3Rational intelligent thinking brings man to the God of nature
4I am Yrger the theist, and here is my definition of God:
"God is the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient
Since you keep avoiding the question of Heaven & Hell, I will assume your god doesn’t cater to the afterlife.
Which brings up another major problem in his existence. You claim is spirit, and originally came from the spirit world before creation.
Problem is there is no such thing. The concept of god, souls, and the spirit world are the products of the human imagination.
Humans have abstract thought, due to our higher brain functions. We can conceive our egos as being something outside our physical bodies.
But truth is, without our body, everything that makes us , us dies . Nothing left once the electrochemical brain impulses stop.
No spirit/soul = no spirit world
No spirit world = no God.
No God = no creator
Since your god isn’t supernatural, he has no powers or abilities to do anything. Let alone transform matter and energy.
You lose again.

DocSavage · M

4. There are two kinds of existence: (a) Self-existence which is the existence of God, (b) dependent existence which is everything that is not God.

Not quite. Based on your description. God and existence being identical.
Leaves only one question to debate.
And that would be god himself. Who needs him ?
God is self existent = reality is self existent .
There is nothing to suggest, that god came first, and then designed everything afterwards.
God is existence = existence is existence. The universe we live in , is indifferent to us. And we can’t interact with much of anything outside of the planet we live on. So, god is equally useless even if he were real.
He doesn’t even offer an afterlife. Our belief or disbelief has no value.
God is the operator = chance and circumstances. If god exist, he’s left us to our own means more or less. We have free will, or at least the illusion of it. The extent of his control, if any is imperceptible to us. He’s didn’t even give us a moral code or compass to work with. Nor does he oversee any judgement of our actions. Before or after.
So, god’s existence is completely irrelevant to our lives. We can not
Perceive him in any physical or spiritual sense that would be any difference to his non existence .
Therefore , there is no reason to believe in him. You only have existence, you don’t have the designer/god.

yrger · 80-89, M

Hi atheist DocSavage, suppose you explain ultimately how the universe came about?

From DocSavage
No, I’ve already heard your description of god. I’ve already pointed out numerous impractical flaws in it too. You claim to use reason and intelligence, but the god you believe in is neither reasonable nor intelligent.
But, like all theist, you ignore it. Your god is omnipotent, so you continue to assert whatever, no matter how nonsensical it is.
The fact that you claim god made a creation that is completely alien and opposite his own nature is a perfectly legitimate observation. You provided no answers. Each time you failed, you tossed in things like “love” and morality into the mix. Both of which would be meaningless to the entity you claim. The Devil, is in the details in this case. Too many questions pop up . And no matter how powerful your god is, you just can’t make it work. So there’s no point in debating further. You’ll just ignore the hard question with another straw man. Fallacies are all you got.

DocSavage · M

[@yrgersackofshit
Answer your own questions. Anything with reason, intelligence, of a bit of evidence is too much for you to read, let alone understand.

DocSavage · M

Do you intend to go on and on and on with other natural processes, without getting to an ultimate uncaused first cause?

You said god doesn’t need a first or ultimate cause. If he doesn’t , then why would the universe ? And if god was created by some other entity then that entity could have just skipped the middleman, and went straight to reality. Didn’t you think it strange that god’s sole reason for existing is to make everything out of nothing ? Something or someone must have designed him for that purpose. Or the could have just set off the Big Bang without him. Your god is an unnecessary step. Who needs him ?

yrger · 80-89, M

Hi atheist DocSavage, you are a clown with your paper godzilla. Don't get funny, that's a bad habit. Go away, you are of no relevancy to members of mankind, in particular members of similarworlds.com.

I Yrger theist am telling you that I have investigated the issue God exists or not.

And I have reached the following findings based on reason and intelligence:

1. God and existence are identical.
2. God is permanent i.e. eternal.
3. God is self-existent i.e. not dependent on anything at all for His existence.
4. There are two kinds of existence: (a) Self-existence which is the existence of God, (b) depedent existence which is everything that is not God.
5. Dependent existence owes its existence to the existence of God, i.e. all instances of dependent existence come about from the creation act of God.
4. God is the medium existence in which all other instances of existence survive in.
5. Summing up: God is the permanent i.e. eternal self-existent reality creator and operator of everything that is not God Himself.

DocSavage · M

[@yrgersackofshit

And what evidence lead you to each of these conclusions ?why are you so reluctant to give a few details ?

DocSavage · M

Now, who made the particles and assembled them? Who else, but God!

You haven’t ruled out quantum foam , gravity, physics, thermodynamics, Casper the friendly ghost, Bugs Bunny, Woody Woodpecker, Bullwinkle Moose, Dumbldor , Mr. Spock, Amos & Andy, Pixies , Genies, Necromancers, Cthulhu, Azeroth, Ymir, Jack Sprat, Philip Marlow , Sam Spade, Gandoff, Godzilla, Gamera, Mothra, Rodan, Sidney Greenstreet,
James Cagney, Bette Davis, Green M&Ms, John Wick, John Constantine, Lex Luther, Pinky and The Brain, Moe Howard, Buster Keaton, Slug McGerk, Merlin, Little Orphan Annie, Betty Boop, Bozo The Clown, Mary Poppins, Fred Mertz, Uncle Charlie, Aunt May, Alfred Pennyworth, Red Licorice,Jeeves, Otis B Driftwood, Prof. Plum, Col. Mustard, Wilson Flisk, Henry Cabot Henhouse lll, Tom Slick, Porky Pig, Puff the Magic Dragon , etc, etc. etc.
There just as much evidence for any of them according to you. You haven’t shown one single thing that proves your god even exist, let alone has the ability to create partials, and assemble them into what we have today. You still have to prove your claim , otherwise you’re wasting time and space.

DocSavage · M

And I am inviting DocSavage to agree with me that the default status of reality is existence, but he is afraid to utter the words, "I (DocSavage) accept that existence is the default status of reality."

Suppose I don’t agree with you. Awareness is the default status of reality.
We humans have the ability of abstract perception and thinking. But our senses are limited what our physical perception can determine. We can make some assumptions with a high degree of confidence, based on the available data. Other assumptions are more doubtful, and require more evidence before they can be accepted.
For example. I’ve traveled to Europe. I know it exist in reality, because I’ve see and experienced it in person. I’ve never been to China, or India
I can see them on a map. But, how can I be certain they exist ?
I’ve met people from there, but they could be lying. That seems very unlikely however when you consider the probability. You are not aware of god, you merely conclude his existence through inclusive evidence. .
God, is imperceptible to human senses. He is also physically impossible by any realistic standards of reality. If you consider existence proof of reality, there is no god. He can not exist in reality.
P.S. if this has too many words for you to handle, tough shit.

DocSavage · M

I Yrger tell you, because you are conditioned in a theistic society, that inculcates theistic morality, that is why.

Nonsense. Pre-internet, Atheism was by some hard core Christians akin to Devil worship. Post child molesting, the church and religion lost their monopoly on morality. Theistic morality is bullshit. People know they can be good without god. You’re just grasping straws to build another strawman fallacy.
Besides , as I mentioned earlier. Your god doesn’t do judgement. No heaven, no hell. He calls the shots, not us. Nothing to fear, dead is dead.
No afterlife to repent for.

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