Hi atheists, how do you define existence?

Hi atheists, have you understood my definition of God, see as follows.

God is the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.


You atheists are wrong in thinking that the material/physical universe is all there is to existence.

There is the realm of spirits that are not subject to material/physical measurements, and God as defined above is the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.


Hi atheists, you should read up on the cosmic background microwave radiation, at which point the material/physical universe began its existence in time/space.

And the agent of the cosmic background microwave radiation is God: the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.


And atheists, you want to ask me whether God is perfect, I tell you God is as perfect as He can be and is perfect for being the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.

I'm not an atheist, I'm agnostic. I'm guessing most of the people you classify as atheist are actually agnostics.

The easiest things to determine existence are those that we can directly see and touch and move around; call that "local existence." The next things are the things we can infer from repeatable measurements and/or observations and/or experiments. That covers pretty much everything else - planets, distant galaxies, merging black holes, electromagnetic waves, speed of light, atoms, etc etc.

So, when you ask me does such a thing as X exist? I answer with another question: does X make a measurable difference anywhere anyhow? And does that alleged measurable distance depend on certain sets of assumptions? Are there other sets of assumptions that can equally explain those measurable differences??

And no you see why I'm an agnostic. Most of those questions still await answers. Thus I leave the questions open.

Hi Doc, you state:
"If god is a spirit, if god is beyond space and time, then god does not exist in what we define as reality."

Your definition of reality is deficient because there is reality that is beyond time and space and that is spiritual as distinct from and opposed to material/physical realities.

You do know that the physical/material universe has a beginning, and it is composed of parts and bits and ultimately of particles and particles and particles and particle on and on and on.

Who created the universe and all its particles and particles and particles? Who else but the spiritual being that is God.

That is why I define God as the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.



From:
DocSavage · M


Would that not be just another word for the same thing , not a definition ? Reality = existence.
In case you haven’t realized it. Your definition of existence nullifies your earlier definitions of god.
If god is a spirit, if god is beyond space and time, then god does not exist in what we define as reality.
The Theme of the “Matrix” is reality is not what we believe it to be. It is however reality to those within it. Only someone who can enter or leave it can tell the difference.
Existence is not limited to the reality we know. We can’t see most of the universe, but we can have confidence that what we can’t see obeys the same laws of physics that we observe. No reason to assume otherwise.
Gods defy everything we observe in physics, which should be impossible in our reality. You can’t have it both ways.
So, how do you account for it ?

Hi ElwoodBlues, calling yourself an agnostic does not dispense you from what I might call a human with fear neurosis.


From:
ElwoodBlues · M
I'm not an atheist, I'm agnostic. I'm guessing most of the people you classify as atheist are actually agnostics.

The easiest things to determine existence are those that we can directly see and touch and move around; call that "local existence." The next things are the things we can infer from repeatable measurements and/or observations and/or experiments. That covers pretty much everything else - planets, distant galaxies, merging black holes, electromagnetic waves, speed of light, atoms, etc etc.

So, when you ask me does such a thing as X exist? I answer with another question: does X make a measurable difference anywhere anyhow? And does that alleged measurable distance depend on certain sets of assumptions? Are there other sets of assumptions that can equally explain those measurable differences??

And no you see why I'm an agnostic. Most of those questions still await answers. Thus I leave the questions open.

Hi DocSavage, I reason out that God is the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.

What about you having also reason, figure out whether there has always been a being that is God etc or not, and if no God, then how did the universe ever get into existence.


So start thinking, has there always been a being that is God who created the universe etc etc etc including you with your reason that is dormant instead of busy with reasoning out things.


Hi everyone, do you see that you don't really need the reply feature - unless you only want to talk with someone, instead of with everyone who has an active reason faculty, instead of of a dormant brain.


You Doc indulge in your shallow fallacious questioning brain and think yourself already pretty smart, real intelligence consists in making questions to address to others, at the same time that you yourself can answer them - otherwise you are just pure evil.


Hi readers, now Doc will go into hibernation, and then appear much later with more silly questions which he himself could not answer either, not with a dormant brain.



================

From DocSavage:

DocSavage · M
So yrger how about an answer to my question ? Do you go the whole nine yards with god ? Creation, morality and afterlife ?
We can argue all day about something from nothing. But if god exist as you claim, I would like to know what you think his agenda is, and what he expects from us.

Hi Vision, you ask me what reality has to do with faith or lack of faith.

It depends on the object of your faith or the object your no-faith is avoiding.

Is the object of your faith or of your no-faith: is a reality or not, i.e. an example of existence.


So, specify what is the reality object you are concerned with or not concerned with.

I am theistic, so for me God is the reality object I am concerned with.

For atheists, tell me what is the reality object you are avoiding.




From:
VisionQuest · 51-55, M
What does reality or the definition of existence have to do with faith or lack thereof?

Hi Davey, you are thinking of existence as reality that does not change, that is one kind of realities, there are many many many . . . kinds of realities, like babies and roses are realities in the neighborhood, and the physical universe is also a reality, and a reality can change into another kind of reality, for example, we eat foods rich in protein which changes into muscle in our body.


From:
DaveyTaco · 31-35, M
I define existence as the world around us. but more specifically, just the fact that I exist alone states that it is reality. if reality were to change, it would not be normal to me. so, we all exist. and not to mention we should all coexist, but it seems hard for some.

Hi SatyrService, please propose what noun name you would rather call atheists with, okay?!

You mention the noun name, unbeliever, I see it to be overly broad, unless you specify exactly what is the object you are not believing in, like for example, the hero in an Italian spaghetti western movie.


From:
SatyrService · M
i have attempted to respond to your questions. and in some detail, with no feedback
i must honor that you are sincere in this desire to understand others, and are not just looking for atheists to debate.

so this time i will be shorter
I don't like the term "atheist' it seems pretty negative these days,, I prefer
Unbeliever , one for whom the holy books do not apply. seen it, read it been to the events.. I remain unconvinced. yet i am ethical, for its own sake not to escape eternal damnation.

Existence is our time in reality, and I mean OBJECTIVE observable reality , that for which there is verifiable evidence. Hearsay from book, scroll or voice is not evidence
i find the infinite cosmos to be enough for me.

Hi PrincessOfHell, you say babies and roses are not evidences of God, but you are not thinking all the way to ultimate realities.

Babies and roses are composed of partis, so ultimately there is God Who created the parts and put them together into babies and roses.

That is why I define God as the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.


From:
PrincessOfHell · F
@yrger I'm spiritual and while that gives me strenght and could be called a belief I do not claim absolute truth. The fact is we don't know whether higher power(s) exist or not.

Roses and babies are no evidence for a higher power. Roses are evidence for the existence of flowers and you could analyze how they produce scent but there is no way you can deduce a God through them.
This is just an assumption you make based on an existing belief of yours.

Also reality

Hi zonavar68, sorry but I am not talking about God as painted in the Bible.

I am talking about God as I know Him by reasoning.


There are three ways man knows God exists.

1. By reasoning
2. By reading the Bible (or the Koran for Muslims)
3. By meditation

I know God exists by num 1 i.e. reasoning.


In a few words, it goes like this:

1. We did not create ourselves.
2. Our parents brought us into existence.
3. Our parents were brought into existence by their parents.
4. This series of parents giving birth to their children could not have started without ultimately God bringing them all into existence.
5. Therefore God exists.

And here is my definition of God:
"God is the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient."



=================

From zonavar68:
zonavar68 · 51-55, M
@yrger god as painted in the Bible is a totally man.made concept. God is neither male or female and cannot be assigned a human gender type. God's gender pronouns would be sky/fairy.

existtence (spelt with two t's) is not a word. ;-) Most animals are self-aware beings therefore existence is the awareness of one's presence in a physical and metaphysical/emotional sense.

If you want to do the Scientology version, you are a thetan (spirit) captured in a meat body.

God is a fully man-made concept. The bible is simply a collection of heavily edited historical accounts that cannot be proven to be true.

Hi LordShadowfire, I am still waiting for your reply to my reply to you, on your question about "Are we perfect."


What is the point you are making in re God exists or not?



=================

From Yrger:

yrger · 80-89, M
Hi LordShadowfire, you are asking me, "Are we perfect?"

You mean are we humans perfect?

So we have to agree on (i) what is a perfect human, and (ii) do we want to be perfect.

From my part as a human, I honestly don't know what it is to be perfect, except perhaps that I am the most handsome and the most intelligent and the most healthy and the most virtuous guy in my neighborhood.

Do I want to be such a guy? No, because it will take too much time and labot from me to maintain my 'perfection'.




From:
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M

Anyway, hi LordShadowfire, perhaps you want to ask me
Nothing quite so cliché. My follow-up question is this:

Are we perfect?

A biological animal. Same as all the others.

Would that not be just another word for the same thing , not a definition ? Reality = existence.
In case you haven’t realized it. Your definition of existence nullifies your earlier definitions of god.
If god is a spirit, if god is beyond space and time, then god does not exist in what we define as reality.
The Theme of the “Matrix” is reality is not what we believe it to be. It is however reality to those within it. Only someone who can enter or leave it can tell the difference.
Existence is not limited to the reality we know. We can’t see most of the universe, but we can have confidence that what we can’t see obeys the same laws of physics that we observe. No reason to assume otherwise.
Gods defy everything we observe in physics, which should be impossible in our reality. You can’t have it both ways.
So, how do you account for it ?

Hi LordShadowfire, let you start with the issue "Has there always been existence i.e. reality or not.


======================

From LordShadowfire:
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
Hi @yrger, I am talking about Farblesnozz's existence as man can know from reasoning, not from faith, so don't bring in the Holy and Perfect Gliberoo.

There are three ways man comes to know Farblesnozz exists:

1. From reasoning
2. From reading the Holy and Perfect Gliberoo
3. From meditation

I demand that you disprove the following:

Farblesnozz is the Most High. He will judge the living and the dead on the day of the Great Gribblefritz. Those found worthy will spend eternity in Erehwon. Those found unworthy will be sentenced to Snazzlekhil, where Mayor Gangleslotte will make them work in the underground dirt mines. The only alcohol available in Snazzlekhil is Hoslibroo, which makes one sober.

Hi Doc, you say, "We’re still stuck in what we believe is reality until we find out differently."

Well, I am most keen to read what you have found out to be different, different from being stuck in reality.



From:
DocSavage · M
Existence is what we perceive around our own self awareness . Either physical or “Matrix” or for that matter spiritual.
Our concept and understanding of it is anchored by our senses, and what we perceive as a shared experience with others.
Theoretically, I suppose our existence could be an illusion, but it would be irrelevant speculation. We’re still stuck in what we believe is reality until we find out differently.

So yrger how about an answer to my question ? Do you go the whole nine yards with god ? Creation, morality and afterlife ?
We can argue all day about something from nothing. But if god exist as you claim, I would like to know what you think his agenda is, and what he expects from us.

Hi PrincessOfHell, I am theistic, are you an atheist?

I know God exists from reasoning, not by empirically i.e. with my eyes, nose, tongue, etc experiencing Him.

Or there are evidences of His existence, like the realities of evidences like babies and roses in our neighborhood.


From:
PrincessOfHell · F
@yrger Empircally examined just means that you experience and see something while neglecting all theories and ideas that are just constructs.

Yes by not seeing something. Nothingness is just the absence of something. We might experience nothingness in death and could be compared to what was before we were born but who knows.

I'd also say reality but to narrow it down i'd say it's everything that can be empirically examined.
Everything that exists without human consciousness is part of existence but not reality since reality needs a mind to process it.

Hi LordShadowfire, where do I say that "God is perfect, but his creations are not"?

You must have been a fundamentalist Bible Christian before.

Let us just keep to reasoning on whether God is perfect or not, and by reasoning determine whether God created man perfect or defective, okay?!



From LordShadowfire

LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
@yrger So, according to you, God is perfect, but his creations are not. How does that work? This would all be easier if you would reply to the same thread instead of pulling this weird shit where you address people at the top, but don't tag them. That's intellectually dishonest, because people don't know you're talking to them, and then you can pretend we're ignoring your brilliant arguments.

i have attempted to respond to your questions. and in some detail, with no feedback
i must honor that you are sincere in this desire to understand others, and are not just looking for atheists to debate.

so this time i will be shorter
I don't like the term "atheist' it seems pretty negative these days,, I prefer
Unbeliever , one for whom the holy books do not apply. seen it, read it been to the events.. I remain unconvinced. yet i am ethical, for its own sake not to escape eternal damnation.

Existence is our time in reality, and I mean OBJECTIVE observable reality , that for which there is verifiable evidence. Hearsay from book, scroll or voice is not evidence
i find the infinite cosmos to be enough for me.

6. Only god can’t exist. Something Can not come from nothing
7. If god was created by some unknowable source, that source could have created the entire universe by the same method.
8. The universe, could then have expanded from its original form into what we have now.
9. Life , could then form as a natural, on going process without any guidance by spiritual influence.
10. In short, you haven’t a single reason outside of an old book of fables to believe in God the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.
Think it over , chuckles. It works as well anything you’ve got.

Bollocks
So yrger once again you are making false , claims without a single shred of evidence, of reason.
Unlike you, I don’t see the need to repeat my concept of god, over and over again. Nor do I see your reason for believing god is a living, conscious, self aware spirit being, that has always existed . Far from it.
I consider it man made mythology, nothing more.
So, instead of all the transparent attempts to avoid answering, how about sticking to the questions we actually did ask ?
Or are you just going to keep wasting our time, by repeating the same old crap over again , in the vain hope it will somehow become credible ?

Hi everyone, just look for your post if you post it, if will come out at the top of all other previous posts.

And you can follow the exchange by just reading the whole chain of posts with the latest ones ahead of the later ones.

Now, if you want to use the reply feature, no one is stopping you, and I will read it also at the top of the whole column of posts, and I will reply to you if it is pertinent and not intended to waste time and labor of other posters who do care to engage in a rational productive exchange of ideas and facts and truths.

Not atheist but atheists are proof of their own existence. Likewise, in many religions, you can also exist without a God having made you, though they believe in a God.

Hi LordShadowfire, you are asking me, "Are we perfect?"

You mean are we humans perfect?

So we have to agree on (i) what is a perfect human, and (ii) do we want to be perfect.

From my part as a human, I honestly don't know what it is to be perfect, except perhaps that I am the most handsome and the most intelligent and the most healthy and the most virtuous guy in my neighborhood.

Do I want to be such a guy? No, because it will take too much time and labot from me to maintain my 'perfection'.




From:
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M


Nothing quite so cliché. My follow-up question is this:

Are we perfect?

Hi MasterLee, the concept of consciousness is not as broad as the concept of existence.

You guys don't seem to get it, namely, that existence is the broadest concept (as concept goes), wherefore it is broader than the concept of consciousness.

Tell you what, look up dictionaries of synonyms for the word existence.

For myself I define existence as reality, and I am sure existence and reality are identical insofar as concepts are concerned.



From:
MasterLee · 51-55, M
Consciousness

From:
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi Jack, existence is a noun word, please avoid comparing a noun word with an adjective word. (Unless you turn an adjective word into a noun word by prefixing it with the article word, the - like the absolute.)

From:
Jackaloftheazuresand · 26-30, M
existence is what is absolute

Jackaloftheazuresand · 26-30, M
@yrger I asked you why? That is, why can't I define existence as what is absolute? You just told me not to but you didn't explain at all what purpose that serves

Hi PrincessOfHell, you state that reality is everything that can be empirically examined, by empiriclly examined you mean say, scientifically examined?

What about nonthingness, can you empirically examine nothingness?



From:
PrincessOfHell · F
I'd also say reality but to narrow it down i'd say it's everything that can be empirically examined.
Everything that exists without human consciousness is part of existence but not reality since reality needs a mind to process it.

So yrger what’s the matter. Not up to a more rigorous discussion on the nature of god ? Reality and existence ?
Is that all you got , “ Something cannot come from nothing “ ?
Still don’t see what it is that leads us to your self creating spirit. Or why he would even bother creating something so different from it’s own nature. Let alone how.
Let’s see some more of that profound insight of yours. Don’t tell me that lame sales pitch is the best you have after all that logic, reason, and meditation.

Hi all atheists, I am talking about God's existence as man can know from reasoning, not from faith, so don't bring in the Bible.

There are three ways man comes to know God exists:

1. From reasoning
2. From reading the Bible (or the Koran for Muslims)
3. From meditation

I am into num 1 i.e. I know God exists from reasoning, so let you atheists also stick to reasoning.

The observation of life. I have proof I exist because I’m obviously here. You can see me, touch me, hear me etc I’m able to be processed.

Hi MorbidCynic, I congratulate you for having proof that you exist, but what about thinking all the way to ultimate realities, like "Does some being always exist which is the source of all things we experience to exist, in particular the source of our own existence?"


From:
MorbidCynic · 26-30, F
The observation of life. I have proof I exist because I’m obviously here. You can see me, touch me, hear me etc I’m able to be processed.

Hi LordShadowfire, you ask me is God perfect, yes or no.

I already told you guys that ". . . atheists, you want to ask me whether God is perfect, I tell you God is as perfect as He can be and is perfect for being the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient."


Anyway, hi LordShadowfire, perhaps you want to ask me whether God can create a rock so heavy He himself cannot lift up?



From:
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
Is God perfect? Yes or no?

Hi DDonde, You mean the reality of the letters A/B/C/etc are out there in the sky, or in our mind i.e. we imagine them as pictures of letters in our mental canvas, I would sumbit that the sky and the mental canvas are realities.


But honestly I don't get your point at all except by guess work.

What exactly is your point?


From:
DDonde · 31-35, M
to mean "there is A/B/C/etc out there in reality"

Fantasy is not the same as “a reality “ that includes the spirit world.

The atheists after reading your comment:
Oh man, i don't have any arguments or lie about your comment, i will mock it to hide my shame


Like bro, atheists on this page only mock your comment, they don't have any lies to come up with to destroy your argument🤣🤣🤣🤣😂

Hi LordShadowfire, so you want to win a debate with me?

Suppose you just me me what is wrong with my ideas, okay!?


From LordShadowfire:
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
@OogieBoogie @SolveEtCoagula He claims to do this so that he can keep track of where his replies are, but it has the added bonus of other people not realizing he's talking to them, so he can pretend he's won.

Hi Jackaloftheazuresand.

Forgive me, I must have missed your question, please tell me what is that question from you.


From:
Jackaloftheazuresand · 26-30, M
@yrger If what you imply is that atheism makes one unhappy then it is apparent that theism makes one ignorant because of your refusal to answer my question

Hi all atheists, please abstain from painting yourselves corny, that is no way to be a sincere honest productive intellectual.


corny = Idiots who try to make themselves look good in public but really are embarrassing.
If you want to be corny then go ahead and embarrass yourself in public.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=corny

Come back and let us know how it went when you meet your deity.

Hi Jack, existence is a noun word, please avoid comparing a noun word with an adjective word. (Unless you turn an adjective word into a noun word by prefixing it with the article word, the - like the absolute.)

From:
Jackaloftheazuresand · 26-30, M
existence is what is absolute

I have a related question for you since you brought up existence.
Do you believe in the afterlife and the continued existence of your consciousness ?
And do you believe that god will provide that afterlife for you ?
A creator god, does not automatically mean a heaven and hell , so
Do you expect more ?

Hi atheists here, I hate to say this, but what have I discovered about you atheists here, from your definition of existence?

You are very unhappy with life and in life.

Hi Emo, you are not answering the question, how do you define existence.

Leave God aside for the present, okay?!

You see, as a concept existence is broader than the concept of God.



From Yrger:
What about you atheists, how do you define existtence?

From:
Emosaur · 22-25, M
Again, God or a god?

I define existence as the world around us. but more specifically, just the fact that I exist alone states that it is reality. if reality were to change, it would not be normal to me. so, we all exist. and not to mention we should all coexist, but it seems hard for some.

Hi BoredDarkLord, that's quite a pessimistic view of life, I propose that you lift up your chance of living happily.


From:
BoredDarkLord
Guys this close to “shuffling off” always start believing in god. So they have a nice alternative fiction to comfort them before their bodies give up.

Hi Doc, let us not be sorry that we are both 'wasting' our time - my joy is that we are both inter-acting, instead of trading gratuitous and unprofitable utterances.



From:
DocSavage · M
@yrger
You’re wasting our time again.

Consciousness