Determinism [Spirituality & Religion]
I want to talk to people who believe determinism, and how you support these beliefs. I then want you to answer a few questions that I believe dismantle determinism.
22-25, M
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Determinism's main problems stem from objections leveled by quantum theory. The thing is, quantum theory generally only applies on (surprise) the quantum level. There are some macro-scale applications of the theory, of course, but I speak in general (or else we simply could not predict macro phenomena with the accuracy we do).
However, there is a hypothesis in physics that quantum effects are the result of different classical, Newtonian universes interacting with each other. If that hypothesis is true, any possible objections from quantum physics to determinism are false (and God would indeed not be playing dice with the universe).
We simply do not know how or why quantum physics operates as it does. Until we do, technically speaking, indeterminism is the order of the day, but determinism still more or less works as an account of the macro world.
However, there is a hypothesis in physics that quantum effects are the result of different classical, Newtonian universes interacting with each other. If that hypothesis is true, any possible objections from quantum physics to determinism are false (and God would indeed not be playing dice with the universe).
We simply do not know how or why quantum physics operates as it does. Until we do, technically speaking, indeterminism is the order of the day, but determinism still more or less works as an account of the macro world.
MaybeTooNarcissistic · 22-25, M
I appreciate the way you said that. Once quantum physics is understood (if it can be), would some atheists still believe what they believe once more evidence against determinism is discovered? Absolutely. Quantum physics is within our universe, in the same world we live in. Simple problems, like what someone will order in a restaurant, or what someone will say, can easily (I use easily loosely) be determined through past events in that person's life, if every event was accounted for.
GlassDog · 41-45, M
I believe in determinism, but I try not to think about because I'd rather it wasn't true.
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GlassDog · 41-45, M
@MaybeTooNarcissistic: I'm afraid I just have to say the same thing again. It doesn't matter than we can't predict it. What matters is that it is predictable (whether we've discovered how to yet or not).
Before we learned to predict solar eclipses, where they unpredictable? No. Our ignorance had no effect on their predictability.
Before we learned to predict solar eclipses, where they unpredictable? No. Our ignorance had no effect on their predictability.
MaybeTooNarcissistic · 22-25, M
@GlassDog: Unless they can be proven to be predictable, one cannot assume that something is predictable. Therein lies the fallacy. If we assume a being smart enough to devise a way to predict such things exists, then the discussion is meaningless. Determinism may be true, may be untrue, but cannot be assumed true unless proven. Similarly, no undeniable proof for Darwinian Evolution has come to light, so it cannot be taken as undeniable truth. To be clear, I am not a Christian, and I believe that the Bible cannot also be taken as undeniable truth.
GlassDog · 41-45, M
@MaybeTooNarcissistic: Pretty much exactly what I said earlier. It can never be proved nor disproved because the only way to do so is to know everything.
tynamite · 31-35, M
I believe in determinism. Free will is an illusion.
MaybeTooNarcissistic · 22-25, M
That is true. Limited exposure leads to predictable responses. Think about the big picture. Can determinism be applied to everything?
tynamite · 31-35, M
@michaelpokemon8: Yes it can be applied to everything if you think about it properly, or if you've had a personality change.
MaybeTooNarcissistic · 22-25, M
@tynamite: See the post @IvanKaramazov made. I think you will find it insightful.
SW-User
No free will in other words?
MaybeTooNarcissistic · 22-25, M
Well, if you believe you have free will, but everything in the universe has led you to make that decision, it is not free will. However, as I do believe the decisions every person makes and every word they say affects what the next person will do, there are flaws to the logic of determinism which I want explained.
SW-User
Maybe, however I'd say that time affects actions more than anything.