Not only did birds EVOLVE from Dinosaurs, birds ARE Dinosaurs! Christians: sound off if this is NOT a problem for you! [Spirituality & Religion]
In fact, the increasingly common way to refer correctly to dinosaurs is "non-avian dinosaur" but certain sects of Christianity find this to be unacceptable for reasons they are not good at defining.
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Nice paint job. So, where are the real facts and evidence? FYI, that's an Archeopteryx. It was not an intermediate between reptile and bird but was an early bird that may have gone extinct. There are at least three birds living today that have claws on there wings, the Hoatzin, a South American bird that has claws on its wings when young, the Touraco that lives in Africa, and the Ostrich. Each of these are alive today which throws out the idea that birds and reptiles are part of the same species.
@GodSpeed63 "throws out the idea that birds and reptiles are part of the same species" You...can't be part of the same species of anything. You're either a species or you aren't. That's like saying both greyhounds and pit bulls are part of the same species.
Birds and reptiles are part of the same clade though, [i]Sauropsida.[/i]
Well you've just pointed out that animals like Archaeopteryx are very dinosaur-like showing characteristics of dinosaur and bird...a transitional form. I'm not sure of the argument you're trying to make there.
But let me ask you a very simple question: How do you know what is a dinosaur and what is not a dinosaur?
@Pikachu [quote]Well you've just pointed out that animals like Archaeopteryx are very dinosaur-like showing characteristics of dinosaur and bird...a transitional form.[/quote]
That's not how science sees it. Archaeopteryx was a bird from the start, no dinosaur ancestry.
[quote]The knowledge of biological anatomy.[/quote]
Indeed. Dinosaur is a taxonomic category and animals are included or excluded from that group based on specific morphological characteristics.
But the science of taxonomy reveals that all the anatomical characteristics that make say, a velociraptor a dinosaur are characteristics which are shared by modern birds. So the same way a scientists can look at a raptor skeleton and identify it as a dinosaur, she can look at a modern bird skeleton and identify the same dinosaur-specific features.
So then on what basis can you exclude birds from the group dinosauria?
@Pikachu [quote]But the science of taxonomy reveals that all the anatomical characteristics that make say, a velociraptor a dinosaur are characteristics which are shared by modern birds.[/quote]
That may be so but it still doesn't mean that birds evolved from raptors or any other dinosaur. Reptiles have a different kind of flesh than birds.
[quote]Reptiles have a different kind of flesh than birds.[/quote]
1) feathers are modified scales 2) Dinosaurs had feathers. There's direct fossil evidence of many genera of dinosaurs from ceratopsians to tyrannosaurs having feathers. There's actually even fossil evidence which allows scientists to determine what [i]colour[/i] some dinosaur feathers were.
But whether you think they evolved or were created, birds are a kind of dinosaur. Glad we could agree on that.
Well you agree that an animal is included in the group "dinosaur" based on certain physical characteristics, don't you? Do you want me to list the numerous anatomical features that place birds in the same taxon as dinosaurs or would you like to concede that point?
I'm letting you off the hook with evolution for now but so far your only counter argument for why birds aren't dinosaurs is "well i think they look different".
[quote]Wrong.[/quote]
Well that's what the science says about scales and feathers but you have to accept evolution for that and this thread really isn't about evolution so i'll leave you be on that.
[quote]Only the Archeopteryx.[/quote]
Wrong. Observe:
Do you concede that point or can you convincingly argue that those are not feathers or not dinosaurs?
@GodSpeed63 [quote]The knowledge of biological anatomy.[/quote]
I know you would never take the time to read them but actually i'll just go ahead and list the anatomical characteristics that place birds in Dinosauria anyway lol Perhaps the mere volume of evidence stacked against will indicate to you that you don't have a leg to stand on.
[b][u]Why are Birds Dinosaurs?[/u][/b]
[u]Archosauria[/u] (Group that includes Dinosaurs and crocodilians but not lizards and snakes)
•Two temporal fenestrae in the skull •An antorbital fenestra in the skull •Palatal process of maxilla meet in the middle on the underside of the cranium •Lack a parietal foramen – a fenestrated section of the skull present in lizards which diffuses light onto the pineal gland •Use B-keratin in their integument •Thecodont teeth (extinct birds) •4th Trochanter -an anchor point on the femur for the caudofemoralis longus which is the main muscle used in moving the legs in this group.
[u]Dinosauria[/u]
•Crocodile reverse (mesotarsal) ankle -astragalus and calcaneum move together and not relative to tibia and fibula producing a joint which only allows for movement up and down unlike most other animals. •Synsacrum -a series of fused vertebrae over the pelvis, today found only in birds but is also found in members of Dinosauria. •A sacral arch that extends in front and behind of the acetabulum while non-bird or Dinosaur reptiles have no forward extension of the sacrum. •A small fibula, large tibia and fused tarsal bones (tibiotarsus) -this fusion is not found in other reptiles but appears in many dinosaurs especially those considered to be ancestral to birds. •Open acetabulum (where the femur sockets into the hip) - one of the most diagnostic features of Dinosauria and part of how they were first identified as a distinct group of animals. Also shared by birds.
[u]Theropod Dinosaurs[/u] •Ferculum (wishbone) – thought to be unique to birds but now found in other Theropod Dinosaurs including T. Rex •Locked Radius and Ulna- unlike in most animals, birds and other Theropods cannot rotate the forearm. This reduces mobility but adds strength. •Pneumatized, uni-directional respiratory system (unique adaptation to birds) – unlike most animals which breathe in and out in two distinct phases, birds and Dinosaurs have a series of air sacs that even extend into the bones which allows for the more efficient uni-directional flow of air through the lungs. •Semilunate Carpal – a crescent shaped bone in the wrist which allows the hand to fold against the ulna. A unique feature of Maniraptoran Dinosaurs (the Dinosaurs considered to be direct ancestors of modern birds) •Feathers – yet another unique feature of birds but many species of dinosaurs have been discovered with fossilized feathers. Eg> Anchyornis , Zhenyuanlong, Caudipteryx, Sinocalliopterix, Sinosauropteryx , Sinomithosaurus, Yutyrannus and Microraptor. (Sinosauropterix and Microraptor have been found with fossilized melanosomes so we actually know what colour their feathers were) There is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet.
[quote]Those fossil only show dinosaurs without feathers.[/quote]
Well not much i can say to flat out denial of the evidence lol
[quote] Dinosaurs are dinosaurs and birds are birds. Okay?[/quote]
And birds are a kind of dinosaur as you agreed when you explained correctly that a dinosaur is a dinosaur based on certain physical traits. You'll notice in my last post a great number of the traits birds share with dinosaurs which is what places them in the same taxon.
@GodSpeed63 [quote]Those fossil only show dinosaurs without feathers.[/quote] No fossils have flesh. Are we to assume dinosaurs were made of only enormous skeletons?
@BlueMetalChick I've literally just showed him pictures of dinosaur fossils with feathers and all he can do is just deny that they are feathers because he is both unequipped to refute the evidence AND far too proud to admit to being wrong.🤷♀️
@Pikachu A famous superhero named Mermaid Man asks SpongeBob and Patrick to take care of his secret underground hideout while he and his sidekick Barnacle Boy are out of town, and while goofing around unsupervised, they accidentally free an imprisoned supervillain named Man-Ray. Unable to restrain him again, they attempt to convert him to good by giving him "lessons" on how to be an upstanding citizen.
They stage a scenario in which Patrick is a bystander who drops his wallet and Man-Ray is supposed to do the right thing. Despite his best efforts, Patrick's infuriating lack of intelligence causes Man-Ray to lose his temper. He tries to hand the wallet to Patrick, but Pat insists it's not his wallet. Man-Ray says he just saw Pat drop it but he won't take it, saying it doesn't belong to him. Frustrated, Man-Ray opens the wallet and says "Aren't you Patrick Star?" to which Pat says yes. He continues "And this is your ID?" Pat again says yes. Man-Ray says "I found this ID in this wallet. So that must mean that this is your wallet." Patrick agrees, saying "Makes sense to me." Man-Ray holds out the wallet and says "Then take it!" to which Pat replies "But it's not my wallet!"
That's Godspeed right now. "If dinosaurs had feathers, we would probably have examples of fossilized feathers on dino bones." Yes, that makes sense. "Here's pictures of fossilized feathers found with a dino skeleton." Sounds good to me. "So then some dinosaurs must have had feathers." Yep, that's logical. "So you agree dinos had feathers?" Nope, they didn't have feathers and you can't find any evidence of it.
@BlueMetalChick lol not a bad comparison. Same thing happened with "are birds dinosaurs".
Me:How do scientists tell if an animal is a dinosaur? godspeed: Physical characteristics Me: Birds have all those characteristics too Godspeed: Birds aren't dinosaurs ok?
