Quite apart from the argument about whether the God of Abraham exists, what argument would you make that he is worthy of love and worship? [Spirituality & Religion]
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daydeeo · 61-69, M
So if we are assuming the existence of a Divine Being who is infinitely good, infinitely holy, infinitely loving, and infinitely just - what would you consider to be a human being's proper response?
ViciDraco · 36-40, M
@daydeeo "what if said being offers a way to escape damnation"
One: you don't give loved ones ultimatums. Accept my sacrifice for you or be damned is not infinitely loving
Two: said being is morally obligated to make their presence known without a doubt if belief in said being is critical to escaping damnation. Failure to do so violates the infinitely good clause
Three: any being that offers infinite rewards or infinite punishments based upon finite crimes is not just and thus incapable of being infinitely just
Providing a way to escape is not a viable route to claim you are good, loving or just.
If I build a building with purposefully faulty wiring, install an emergency fire exit but cover it with paper so nobody can see it, I am not good. If I tell one person where the fire exit is and have him tell you - but allow dozens of others to also approach and tell you fake stories about where the fire exit is, then I am not loving. If I blame you for not finding the fire exit when the building burns down because I designed it that way, then I am most certainly not just. Am I? But I provided a way to escape.
One: you don't give loved ones ultimatums. Accept my sacrifice for you or be damned is not infinitely loving
Two: said being is morally obligated to make their presence known without a doubt if belief in said being is critical to escaping damnation. Failure to do so violates the infinitely good clause
Three: any being that offers infinite rewards or infinite punishments based upon finite crimes is not just and thus incapable of being infinitely just
Providing a way to escape is not a viable route to claim you are good, loving or just.
If I build a building with purposefully faulty wiring, install an emergency fire exit but cover it with paper so nobody can see it, I am not good. If I tell one person where the fire exit is and have him tell you - but allow dozens of others to also approach and tell you fake stories about where the fire exit is, then I am not loving. If I blame you for not finding the fire exit when the building burns down because I designed it that way, then I am most certainly not just. Am I? But I provided a way to escape.
ViciDraco · 36-40, M
@daydeeo I think the problem is that we use different methods for determining truth.
We are looking at actions and making judgement upon the being. Just as we call men good because they do good and men evil because they do evil.
Correct me if I am wrong but Your approach seems to be to make judgement of the actions based upon who is doing them. You have ascribed infinite good to a being and thus call any act it engages in a good act.
We are looking at actions and making judgement upon the being. Just as we call men good because they do good and men evil because they do evil.
Correct me if I am wrong but Your approach seems to be to make judgement of the actions based upon who is doing them. You have ascribed infinite good to a being and thus call any act it engages in a good act.
@daydeeo
lol come on dude, that's weak.
I explained why i thought your question wasn't the right question to ask and you [i]still[/i] insisted that i answer it.
And i did.
Now you hold up your end of the bargain.
I agree that there are certain assumptions necessary for this discussion and that assumption ( i think you'll agree) is that we learn about god's character through what is recorded in the bible.
So you can't just say "I assume that god is all good, loving and just and if you don't share that assumption there can be no discussion" because that [i]IS[/i] the discussion i'm proposing here: On what basis do you make that assumption?
lol come on dude, that's weak.
I explained why i thought your question wasn't the right question to ask and you [i]still[/i] insisted that i answer it.
And i did.
Now you hold up your end of the bargain.
I agree that there are certain assumptions necessary for this discussion and that assumption ( i think you'll agree) is that we learn about god's character through what is recorded in the bible.
So you can't just say "I assume that god is all good, loving and just and if you don't share that assumption there can be no discussion" because that [i]IS[/i] the discussion i'm proposing here: On what basis do you make that assumption?
daydeeo · 61-69, M
@Pikachu You've she'd why I consider the His of Abraham to be worthy of love and worship.
I believe in the Trinity, that the Son and the Father are one.
Jesus confirmed this, saying "I and my Father are one", and "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father".
As God, I consider Jesus worthy of love and worship. As He and His Father are one, the Father is also worthy of love and worship.
I believe in the Trinity, that the Son and the Father are one.
Jesus confirmed this, saying "I and my Father are one", and "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father".
As God, I consider Jesus worthy of love and worship. As He and His Father are one, the Father is also worthy of love and worship.
@daydeeo
Yes i thought that might be your point.
But as you say, the only thing that quote actually says is that if you know one then you know the other.
But that goes both ways.
That means that all the things god does in the old testament count as well.
I'm going to assume you've read the OT as well as the NT so you know how brutal, vengeful and jealous god can be.
So if you've got a man who is kind and understanding to people sometimes but horrifyingly violent to people [i]most[/i] of the time...is that man worthy of love and respect?
Because that's what you're dealing with here.
You've got Jesus who has a few nice things to say and is generally more forgiving to people who don't like him...and then you've got OT who drowned the world, murders every firstborn son in Egypt with the [i]stated[/i] purpose of showing off his power and ordering his people to slaughter every man, woman, child and animal upon concurring the enemy.
To name only a few examples.
So when examining the fullness of the recorded character of god, what makes that being worthy of love and worship?
Or are you going with the battered wife syndrome argument of "I know he beats me but it's my fault and sometimes he can be really sweet"?
Yes i thought that might be your point.
But as you say, the only thing that quote actually says is that if you know one then you know the other.
But that goes both ways.
That means that all the things god does in the old testament count as well.
I'm going to assume you've read the OT as well as the NT so you know how brutal, vengeful and jealous god can be.
So if you've got a man who is kind and understanding to people sometimes but horrifyingly violent to people [i]most[/i] of the time...is that man worthy of love and respect?
Because that's what you're dealing with here.
You've got Jesus who has a few nice things to say and is generally more forgiving to people who don't like him...and then you've got OT who drowned the world, murders every firstborn son in Egypt with the [i]stated[/i] purpose of showing off his power and ordering his people to slaughter every man, woman, child and animal upon concurring the enemy.
To name only a few examples.
So when examining the fullness of the recorded character of god, what makes that being worthy of love and worship?
Or are you going with the battered wife syndrome argument of "I know he beats me but it's my fault and sometimes he can be really sweet"?