The Burden of Proof: Theists of SW, do you believe that an atheist has a burden of proof when it comes to their lack of belief in a god [Spirituality & Religion]

@redredred

Well an agnostic is just an agnostic atheist. If you don't believe that a god exists then you're an atheist whether you think it's possible to know or not.

And what would you consider to be a proof that atheists hold up?

An agnostic, as the etymology of the word implies, is one who simply doesnt know whether or not a god or gods exist. There is no burden of proof that one doesnt know something.

No one can prove a negative. You cannot prove there are no mice in your livingroom. You can state emphatically that you dont see any, have never seen any and that you have a cat who wouldnt tolerate mice in the house but you cannot prove there arent any. You can conduct a search with flame thrower and shotgun and not find any but that doesnt mean you didnt miss one.

You cannot prove there is no god no matter how unlikely that absurdity is to you (and to me) because there is always the chance, slim and vanishing as it is, that there is a god.@Pikachu

@redredred


Yup. Agreed.

But there's this one very simple question that always shows that an agnostic is an agnostic atheist:

Do you believe that a god exists?

If you say anything but "yes" then you're by definition an atheist.

no. if i answer "I dont know if a god exists and dont have enough information to form a belief " that makes me an agnostic. If you want to play with words, what word would you like to suggest to describe a person who simply doesnt know?@Pikachu

@redredred
That assumes that the atheist is making the claim that there is no god.
Such a person would be a gnostic atheist (I don't personally know any... but that's just me)

An agnostic atheist holds that:
1. there's no proof that gods exist (otherwise we'd all be theists)
2. there's no proof that gods don't exist (they might be lurking around a mountain-top somewhere)
3. in any event, there's no compelling necessity to even postulate gods, and the postulation explains nothing... it merely tries to explain everything away. Worse, it adds an unnecessary complication in that the postulated explanation is itself unexplained.
4. therefore, I have no gods (I'm an agnostic atheist)

No claim, and no burden of proof.

@redredred
What about a view of God?

or gods@GodSpeed63

@redredred



If that is your answer, do you have a belief that a god exists?
Nope.
So that necessarily means you're an atheist: without a belief in a god.


Agnostic atheist.

@redredred The word 'agnostic' is commonly used as a noun, but is actually an adjective (from the Greek adjective agnōstos, 'unknowable'), and much confusion evaporates when it is used adjectivally.

A theist is anyone who has some sort of god or gods

An atheist is someone who has no god or gods

Now, this division is further divided into two more groups… the gnostic and the agnostic.
Gnostic means: having specific knowledge about something

Agnostic, obviously, means: not having specific knowledge about something.

So now we have four groups:

Gnostic theist: this is usually someone who subscribes to a particular religion. This person has a god or gods, and claims to have specific knowledge about their god or gods.
Agnostic theist: this is someone who has a god or gods, but does not claim specific knowledge about that god. Such people often describe themselves as ‘spiritual’.

Gnostic atheist: this is someone who has no god or gods, and who claims to know as a certainty that there are no gods.

Agnostic atheist: this is someone who has no god or gods, does not claim to know as a certainty that there are no gods, but also sees no need for them.


OK, let’s look at each of these in more detail…
Gnostic theists have the problem that they carry a burden of proof. This is because they claim to have knowledge about their gods, and therefore it’s up to them to prove their claims. Of course, they can’t (otherwise everyone would be theists), and they end up saying that ‘you have to have faith’… which means ‘I will pretend to know’ (faith is what we call belief that has achieved escape-velocity from reality)


Gnostic atheists have the same problem. They claim to know for certain that there are no gods, and therefore it’s up to them to prove their claims. They too carry a burden of proof that they cannot carry (otherwise everyone would be atheists).


Agnostic theists aren’t making a claim, and have no burden of proof. They are saying that they have gods, but that they don’t know anything about those gods (other than that they are, presumably, god-like).
 They often use terms such as 'spiritual' and 'cosmic energy'.

Agnostic atheists have the easiest position (which is why theists commonly try to pretend that all atheists are gnostic atheists). They aren’t making a claim, and have no burden of proof. They are saying that they have no gods. There’s nothing to know and nothing to discuss.

@Pikachu Lol

@Harriet03 Proverbs 14:7-9 Leave the presence of a fool, for there you do not meet words of knowledge. The wisdom of the prudent is to discern his way, but the folly of fools is deceiving. Fools mock at the guilt offering, but the upright enjoy acceptance. The Word of God.

Is english not your first language? I have no belief regarding the question of a gods existence; neither negative or in the affirmative. An atheist believes there is no god, a theist believes there is/are a god/gods. I have no belief on this question. Stop playing with words, its as distateful as playing with your food. @Pikachu

@redredred

No need to get upset.

No one is playing with words. Perhaps you're simply not familiar with the definitions:

a·the·ist
/ˈāTHēəst/
noun
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

So as an agnostic, you lack a belief in a god. Unless you say "yes, i believe in a god" then this is unavoidable, unavoidably making you...an aganostic atheist.

@redredred

@Harriet03 Himself.

@GodSpeed63 Your MAD!

@Harriet03 Why do you say that? Where's your proof that it wasn't Him that gave evidence for Himself?

By definition an atheists asserts there is no god. It is an article of faithfor atheists to assert there is no god but thats what the word "atheist" means. Please dont, as others have, confuse "atheist" with "agnostic" @newjaninev2

@redredred


Nope.
I gave you a definition of atheist and by definition an atheist is one who disbelieves or simply lacks belief in a deity

You simply lack logic in this discussion. I am an individual who lacks sufficiant information to come to a conclusion regarding the existence of a gid or gods. What is the aggregate belief of a hung jury? I am unable to discern a basis for any belief in this matter. I have no belief so it is inaccurate and illogical to characterize my thoughts as a belief. What size foot does a legless man have? @Pikachu

atheism noun
athe·​ism | \ ˈā-thē-ˌi-zəm \
Definition of atheism
1a : a lack of belief or a strong disbeliefin the existence of a god or any gods
b : a philosophical or religious position characterized by disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods

Since the definition can include "a strong belief" atheists can correctly be said to assert the non-existence of god. I do not have a lack of belief in god, I have a lack of opinion on the subject@Pikachu

@redredred

I don't know why you thought that definition made any difference as it also includes a lack of belief.

But i'm confused.
You don't hold a belief that a god exists because you "lack an opinion" on the subject.
Can you explain how that does not constitute a lack of belief?
And i don't want you to just repeat that you "have a lack of opinion on the subject", i want you to explain what the difference is between not having an opinion and lacking a belief in a god.
If you don't say "yes, i believe that a god exists", can you explain how you are not lacking a belief in a god?

@redredred It isn't in any way a question of belief.

1. there's no proof that gods exist (otherwise we'd all be theists)
2. there's no proof that gods don't exist (they might be lurking around a mountain-top somewhere)
3. in any event, there's no compelling necessity to even postulate gods, and the postulation explains nothing... it merely tries to explain everything away.
4. therefore, I have no gods (I'm an agnostic atheist)

Belief simply doesn't come into it

@newjaninev2
You're living proof that Yahweh lives like the rest of mankind.

@GodSpeed63 A vacuous tautology