Random
Only logged in members can reply and interact with the post.
Join SimilarWorlds for FREE »

Too Good not to share!

The “climate crisis” is a lie, a hoax, a fraud, an affront to science and logic, a travesty, an economic and social sinkhole, a fake phoney baloney preposterous fabrication, a boondoggle, a massive waste of time and money, a pain in the arse, and it’s really silly too.

Dr Patrick Moore co-founder and former leader of Greenpeace.
but I've yet to hear a rational explanation of how miniscule increases in an atmospheric trace gas such as CO2, causes the earth to warm.
It's because CO2 & methane are transparent to visible light but more opaque to infrared. The solar energy comes pouring in via the visible spectrum, but the heat can't leave so easily via the infrared spectrum due to that opacity. Kids' version:
https://www.sciencenewsforstudents.org/article/explainer-co2-and-other-greenhouse-gases
idealized quantitative model: https://www.climate-policy-watcher.org/coriolis-force/a-simple-mathematical-model-of-the-greenhouse-effect.html

In order to actually prove human carbon emissions influence climate, all variables would have to remain constant
Nope. With multiple data points we can solve for multiple variables simultaneously. Detailed climate models account for all the variables you list and more. They are verified and calibrated based on 700,000 years of prior climate data.
http://web.mit.edu/globalchange/www/climate.html

Global warming models are based on small amounts of data. The earth is 4.6 billion years old, and we are expected to believe they can draw conclusions based on a hockey stick graph with 50 years of data?
Nope, not 50 years, 700,000 years, covering about 7 ice ages. The climate data comes from bubbles in glacial ice, and is corroborated by data from sea floor sediments.
https://icecores.org/about-ice-cores

Here's where the various data sets were collected:

The most salient thing about the 700,000 years of climate data is the rate of change during those previous 7 ice ages compared to the current rate of change this century.

Where does the money for climate research come from?
Fair question. Equally fair: where does the money for climate denial come from? The US oil industry makes about $110 billion per year; coal another $20 billion. Big Oil spends $3.6 billion per year on advertising; a sum equal to about 8X the whole NSF climate budget. You're not naive enough to believe none of that money goes to propaganda, are you?
@hippyjoe1955 Established scientists aren't afraid to provide their references. You don't have any, and you're trying to hide that sad fact, LOL!!!

hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@ElwoodBlues The only conspiracy theory here is you and your foolish ideas. You know nothing about CO2 or glaciers or sea level rise or change in level of the land. But here you are absolutely we are bound for perdition because the CO2 levels are now at near record lows of 400 PPM because SCIENCE! Go away before I bust a gut laughing at your utter foolishness.
@hippyjoe1955 Got any links or data supporting these outlandish claims?? I didn't think so, LOL!!!
@dakotaviper @hippyjoe1955
The global warming / climate change we're seeing in the last 100 or so years is MUCH different from anything measured in the glacial & sea sediment records covering the last 700,000 years. CO2 is rising 100x faster, and temps 10x faster.

"How is Today’s Warming Different from the Past?" https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/features/GlobalWarming/page3.php "As the Earth moved out of ice ages over the past million years, the global temperature rose a total of 4 to 7 degrees Celsius over about 5,000 years. In the past century alone, the temperature has climbed 0.7 degrees Celsius, roughly ten times faster than the average rate of ice-age-recovery warming."

How is today's CO2 increase different? https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/climate-change-atmospheric-carbon-dioxide "The annual rate of increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide over the past 60 years is about 100 times faster than previous natural increases, such as those that occurred at the end of the last ice age 11,000-17,000 years ago."

Fact is, anthropogenic global warming is accepted by a YUGE segment of the scientific community. Would you accept the consensus opinion of the American Physical Society AND the American Chemical Society? How about the American Association for the Advancement of Science, and at least 15 other national organizations of publishing scientists? See https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/



UPDATE


@hippyjoe1955 says:
CO2 is not a driver of climate.
Yes, it is, thru the well known greenhouse effect.
https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/how-do-greenhouse-gases-trap-heat-atmosphere
https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/climatescience/climatesciencenarratives/what-is-the-greenhouse-effect.html

If it were life would have been eliminated when the CO2 levels were at 6000 PPM during the cretaceous period.
FALSE. GIANT straw man fallacy.
High CO2 levels will raise avg temperatures, causing polar ice to melt, raising sea levels and flooding $100 trillion worth of seaside land & structures.

Reducing CO2 is about preventing that disaster, as I posted elsewhere here.

According to Brittannica
Surface water temperatures were about 30 °C (86 °F) at the Equator year-round, but at the poles they were 14 °C (57 °F) in winter and 17 °C (63 °F) in summer.
How do we know? From oxygen isotopes in Cretaceous fossils.

Sea levels, according to Brittannica:
In general, world oceans were about 100 to 200 metres (330 to 660 feet) higher in the Early Cretaceous and roughly 200 to 250 metres (660 to 820 feet) higher in the Late Cretaceous than at present.
How do we know? Because sedimentary rocks in the interiors of continents contain the fossilized remains of marine organisms such as clams, oysters, and corals, demonstrating that they were deposited below the sea. The extent of all this sub-sea sediment is far too large to be explained by ordinary rising & subsidence of land masses.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@ElwoodBlues CO2 is not a driver of climate. If it were life would have been eliminated when the CO2 levels were at 6000 PPM during the cretaceous period. What happened? Did the temperature go up and just keep going up turning Earth into Venus? Nope. The temperature went down. The CO2 levels began to fall as life converted CO2 into limestone and coal. I bet you don't even know that life thrives in a CO2 rich environment. Somewhere about 1200 PPM is optimal for both plants and animals. Ask any greenhouse operator.
@hippyjoe1955
CO2 is not a driver of climate.
Yes, it is, thru the well known greenhouse effect.
https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/how-do-greenhouse-gases-trap-heat-atmosphere
https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/climatescience/climatesciencenarratives/what-is-the-greenhouse-effect.html

If it were life would have been eliminated when the CO2 levels were at 6000 PPM during the cretaceous period.
FALSE. GIANT straw man fallacy.
High CO2 levels will raise avg temperatures, causing polar ice to melt, raising sea levels and flooding $100 trillion worth of seaside land & structures.

Reducing CO2 is about preventing that disaster, as I posted elsewhere here. And I've tried to educate you about this earlier, but you haven't learned a thing.

According to Brittannica
Surface water temperatures were about 30 °C (86 °F) at the Equator year-round, but at the poles they were 14 °C (57 °F) in winter and 17 °C (63 °F) in summer.
How do we know? From oxygen isotopes in Cretaceous fossils.
This comment is hidden. Show Comment
dakotaviper · 56-60, M
What's really funny is that they keep forcing the 'science' aspect of everything else except Climate Change.

This Planet has been in a Constant State of Evolution for hundreds of millions of years. And these so-called educated buffoons are demanding that we stop Mother Nature from Evolving.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@PTCdresser57 Still looking in the mirror? Give it a rest. You have no evidence in support of your panic. You were sold a bill of goods and are proud of the purchase. I have looked at the evidence and found it to be completely lacking. In fact the data has not only been manipulated in many places it is a complete fabrication. Of course you don't know that. You are following the 'official' story. I am laughing at you.
@dakotaviper
What's really funny is that they keep forcing the 'science' aspect of everything else except Climate Change.
What's really funny is that you could post that with a straight face!
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@ElwoodBlues Ditto.
Addressing the question of changes in insolation & Milankovitch cycles:

In previous ice ages, without massive human release of CO2, the initial temperature increases weren't due to CO2, but once the temperature ball got rolling, CO2 was very much a contributor.

This statement does not tell the whole story. The initial changes in temperature during this period are explained by changes in the Earth’s orbit around the sun, which affects the amount of seasonal sunlight reaching the Earth’s surface. In the case of warming, the lag between temperature and CO2 is explained as follows: as ocean temperatures rise, oceans release CO2 into the atmosphere. In turn, this release amplifies the warming trend, leading to yet more CO2 being released. In other words, increasing CO2 levels become both the cause and effect of further warming. This positive feedback is necessary to trigger the shifts between glacials and interglacials as the effect of orbital changes is too weak to cause such variation. Additional positive feedbacks which play an important role in this process include other greenhouse gases, and changes in ice sheet cover and vegetation patterns.
https://skepticalscience.com/co2-lags-temperature.htm

More from the same source:
A 2012 study by Shakun et al. looked at temperature changes 20,000 years ago (the last glacial-interglacial transition) from around the world and added more detail to our understanding of the CO2-temperature change relationship. They found that:

The Earth's orbital cycles triggered warming in the Arctic approximately 19,000 years ago, causing large amounts of ice to melt, flooding the oceans with fresh water.

This influx of fresh water then disrupted ocean current circulation, in turn causing a seesawing of heat between the hemispheres.

The Southern Hemisphere and its oceans warmed first, starting about 18,000 years ago. As the Southern Ocean warms, the solubility of CO2 in water falls. This causes the oceans to give up more CO2, releasing it into the atmosphere.

While the orbital cycles triggered the initial warming, overall, more than 90% of the glacial-interglacial warming occured after that atmospheric CO2 increase (Figure 2).

In the current century, humans have raised CO2 levels by 10% already. Are you prepared to deny that much CO2 increase won't boost the greenhouse effect to a point where urban areas next to the ocean experience serious flooding?
@hippyjoe1955 ... but, but, but, you DO believe every conspiracy theory the comes down the pipe! That's EXACTLY what you do, LOL!!!

There is no evidence of AGW.
Riiiiiiiiight
The American Chemical Society can't do chemistry.
The American Physical Society can't do physics.
Only dippyjoe knows all the answers, and he knows because he read it on redstate, ROTFL!!!
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@ElwoodBlues so you have no idea how much science money can buy. Sad but true history shows CO2 plus not a driver of climate. Science to the contrary is contrary to science
@hippyjoe1955 Oil companies' total sales are about $100 billion per year. Ever wonder how much "science" that money can buy? No, I guess you never did ask that question, LOL!!!
Here's another way to look at climate change; thru the lenses of probability and cost benefit analysis.

The total stock capitalization of American businesses traded on the stock exchanges is around $48 trillion. Someone on Quora calculated the land & resource value of the whole USA at $5000 trillion. So I don't think it's unreasonable to value US seaside land buildings & infrastructure at the very round number of $100 trillion.

If you are CEO of a $100 trillion corporation, and some of your people are telling you the whole thing could be flooded in 20 years or 40 years or whatever, what's the prudent thing to do? Answer: ask for cost benefit analyses.

This approach removes the whole "religious war" aspect of the question and focuses on insurance style calculations.

What are the cost estimates for protecting your $100 trillion from floods, and what's a reasonable probablility estimate that the doomsayers are correct? The religious war approach pins those probabilities at 0% and 100%, but suppose you allow a 25% probability that the doomsayers are correct, or, alternatively, that they're only 25% correct (25% is just for the sake of argument; I'm not married to the figure).

With that assumption, you now have $25 trillion at risk, so what's the prudent amount to spend to insure that $25 trillion?

A quick google says homeowners insurance costs about $3300/yr for each $1 million of value. Scaling to $25 trillion, that works out to $82 billion per year, or a 12 year investment of about $1 trillion.

So there's nothing outlandish about a ten year one trillion dollar green energy plan, especially given that the plan includes plenty of jobs, infrastructure upgrades, and goods purchased from American businesses.
@hippyjoe1955 says
There is no sea level rise because none of the big glaciers are melting. You clearly have not been paying attention.

Are glaciers shrinking? What does the photographic evidence say?

Muir Glacier, Alaska

Muir Glacier and Inlet, Alaska, 1880s and 2005

Carroll Glacier, Alaska, 1906 and 2004

Grinnell Glacier, Montana, 1926 and 2008

Bear Glacier from space 1980. 1989, 2011

Bear Glacier from the air 2002, 2007

Glacier shrinkage driving global changes in downstream systems
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1619807114

Accelerated global glacier mass loss in the early twenty-first century
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03436-z
Using largely untapped satellite archives, we chart surface elevation changes at a high spatiotemporal resolution over all of Earth’s glaciers. We extensively validate our estimates against independent, high-precision measurements and present a globally complete and consistent estimate of glacier mass change. We show that during 2000–2019, glaciers lost a mass of 267 ± 16 gigatonnes per year, equivalent to 21 ± 3 per cent of the observed sea-level rise6. We identify a mass loss acceleration of 48 ± 16 gigatonnes per year per decade, explaining 6 to 19 per cent of the observed acceleration of sea-level rise.
dakotaviper · 56-60, M
@ElwoodBlues all of what you've shown here in true. But refusing to believe that this Planet has always been in a constant state of evolution is preposterous. These so-called Climate Change Prevention Warriors are just trying to keep the Planet from evolving.
@dakotaviper See the data from the last 700,000 years, covering about 7 ice ages. The climate data comes from bubbles in glacial ice, and is corroborated by data from sea floor sediments.
https://icecores.org/about-ice-cores

That spike covering the last 100 years - that's not "evolution."
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@ElwoodBlues You mean like 10,000 years ago when my house was under a mile of glacier Ice? Too funny. Son you are so far out of your league you are little more than a joke.
gol979 · 41-45, M
There is something going on on an ecological scale. Bugs dying off en masse etc. But the answers they are giving.....carbon capture, nitrogen reduction, methane is just being used for more control. Look into ESGs
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@gol979 The fact is that the earth has been around for a very long time and has undergone countless changes. Life continues. Should we panic over tectonic plate movement? They are destroying human settlements all the time, or should humanity get its head together and stop settling in earthquake zones?
@gol979
There is something going on on an ecological scale. Bugs dying off en masse etc.

The science supports your observations
Abstract
Recent case studies showing substantial declines of insect abundances have raised alarm, but how widespread such patterns are remains unclear. We compiled data from 166 long-term surveys of insect assemblages across 1676 sites to investigate trends in insect abundances over time. Overall, we found considerable variation in trends even among adjacent sites but an average decline of terrestrial insect abundance by ~9% per decade and an increase of freshwater insect abundance by ~11% per decade. Both patterns were largely driven by strong trends in North America and some European regions. We found some associations with potential drivers (e.g., land-use drivers), and trends in protected areas tended to be weaker. Our findings provide a more nuanced view of spatiotemporal patterns of insect abundance trends than previously suggested.
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aax9931

Also see
Worldwide decline of the entomofauna: A review of its drivers
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0006320718313636



UPDATE


Dippyjoe: let's just say I find the peer reviewed meta-analyses far more convincing than I find your outlandish claims, LOL!!!
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@ElwoodBlues And you believe that line of bunk because it is academe (not science) HUGE difference that is completely lost on you.
ElRengo · 70-79, M
It should be some kind of consolation to confirm that you can find ignorant fools like that one even where you don´t expect them to be.
PTCdresser57 · 61-69, M
He is not a founder or co founder of Geenpeace Canada. After 16 yrs with Greanpeace...he now works with some of the biggest polluters around
PTCdresser57 · 61-69, M
Ingnorance is bliss for you hippyjoe1955...so enjoy it as you believe disinformation.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@PTCdresser57 The ignorance is all on your side. You know nothing about Greenpeace or its founding or its purpose or how it changed. I bet you think that global warming is happening too. Now that is FUNNY!!!!
This comment is hidden. Show Comment
Once upon a time, an oil billionaire, Charles Koch, decided to "red team" the whole climate science establishment. He hired a known climate skeptic with impeccable credentials - a physics professor at UC Berkeley named Richard Muller. Muller hired chemists and more physicists and they built their own climate model (these things run on supercomputers) from scratch, making their own assumptions about how the variables interact etc.

"Three years ago I identified problems in previous climate studies that, in my mind, threw doubt on the very existence of global warming," Muller wrote. "Last year, following an intensive research effort involving a dozen scientists, I concluded that global warming was real and that the prior estimates of the rate of warming were correct. I'm now going a step further: Humans are almost entirely the cause."
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/converted-contrarian-argues-humans-to-blame-for-climate-change/
graphite · 61-69, M
The climate change scam is a way for the elitists to strip of us our liberties in the name of 'saving the planet!" Restrict what we can eat, what we can do, what we can say, and if we oppose, we're selfish polluters. It's insidious.
There's a silly rumor going around that volcanoes emit far more CO2 than human activity. That silly rumor was debunked in 2009, LOL!!!

According to the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS), the world’s volcanoes, both on land and undersea, generate about 200 million tons of carbon dioxide (CO2) annually, while our automotive and industrial activities cause some 24 billion tons of CO2 emissions every year worldwide. Despite the arguments to the contrary, the facts speak for themselves: Greenhouse gas emissions from volcanoes comprise less than one percent of those generated by today’s human endeavors.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earthtalks-volcanoes-or-humans/

Want more details?

33 measured degassing volcanoes emit a total of 60 million tons of CO2 per year.
There are a total of ~150 known degassing volcanoes, implying (based on the measured ones) that a total of 271 million tons of CO2 are released annually.
30 historically active volcanoes are measured to emit a total of 6.4 million tons of CO2 per year.
With ~550 historically active volcanoes total, they extrapolate this class of object contributes 117 million tons per year.
The global total from volcanic lakes is 94 million tons of CO2 per year.
Additional emissions from tectonic, hydrothermal and inactive volcanic areas contribute an estimated 66 million tons of CO2 per year, although the total number of emitting, tectonic areas are unknown.
And finally, emissions from mid-ocean ridges are estimated to be 97 million tons of CO2 annually.

Add all of these up, and you get an estimate of around 645 million tons of CO2 per year. Yes, there are uncertainties; yes, there's annual variation; yes, it's easy to get led astray if you think that Mt. Etna is typical, rather than the unusually large emitter of CO2 that it is. When you realize that volcanism contributes 645 million tons of CO2 per year – and it becomes clearer if you write it as 0.645 billion tons of CO2 per year – compared to humanity's 29 billion tons per year, it's overwhelmingly clear what's caused the carbon dioxide increase in Earth's atmosphere since 1750.

In fact, even if we include the rare, very large volcanic eruptions, like 1980's Mount St. Helens or 1991's Mount Pinatubo eruption, they only emitted 10 and 50 million tons of CO2 each, respectively. It would take three Mount St. Helens and one Mount Pinatubo eruption every day to equal the amount that humanity is presently emitting.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2017/06/06/how-much-co2-does-a-single-volcano-emit/?sh=4c086085cbf5
What about Greenland and Antarctica?


A recent study of Greenland’s ice sheet found that glaciers are retreating in nearly every sector of the island, while also undergoing other physical changes. Some of those changes are causing the rerouting of freshwater rivers beneath the ice.

In a study led by Twila Moon of the National Snow and Ice Data Center, researchers took a detailed look at physical changes to 225 of Greenland’s ocean-terminating glaciers—narrow fingers of ice that flow from the ice sheet interior to the ocean. They found that none of those glaciers has substantially advanced since the year 2000, and 200 of them have retreated.
. . .
“The coastal environment in Greenland is undergoing a major transformation,” said Alex Gardner, a snow and ice scientist at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory and co-author of the study. “We are already seeing new sections of the ocean and fjords opening up as the ice sheet retreats, and now we have evidence of changes to these freshwater flows. So losing ice is not just about changing sea level, it’s also about reshaping Greenland’s coastline and altering the coastal ecology.”
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/147728/shrinking-margins-of-greenland

Antarctica
[media=https://youtu.be/AmSovbt5Bho]

April 1, 2021. The Antarctic ice sheet's mass has changed over the last decades. Research based on satellite data indicates that between 2002 and 2020, Antarctica shed an average of 149 billion metric tons of ice per year, adding to global sea level rise.Apr 1, 2021
. . .
Areas in East Antarctica experienced modest amounts of mass gain due to increased snow accumulation. However, this gain is more than offset by significant ice mass loss on the West Antarctic Ice Sheet (dark red) over the 19-year period. Floating ice shelves whose mass change GRACE and GRACE-FO do not measure are colored gray.
https://climate.nasa.gov/climate_resources/265/video-antarctic-ice-mass-loss-2002-2020/

For Antarctica, BEDMAP2 and Bedmachine provides the most complete and up-to-date estimate of ice volume, and it is derived by combining thousands of radar and seismic measurements of ice thickness [2,3].

In fact, BEDMAP 2 is derived from 25 million measurements. Fretwell et al. 2013 estimated that the Antarctic Ice Sheet comprised 27 million km3 of ice, with a sea level equivalent of ~58 m. BedMachine estimates the sea level equivalent of Antarctica to be 57.9±0.9m
https://www.antarcticglaciers.org/glaciers-and-climate/estimating-glacier-contribution-to-sea-level-rise/
Piper · 61-69, F
How I wish, that that were so.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@Piper Prove it to be false.
Virgo79 · 61-69, M
But its such a money maker😉
This message was deleted by its author.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@SW-User There are lots of ways to deal with trash including incineration. When burned there is very little need for landfills.
This message was deleted by its author.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@SW-User There are some pretty efficient scrubbers now. Not much pollution at all. Mostly plant food.

 
Post Comment