To all carnivores,

@SteelHands But it [i]is[/i] meat. It’s grown from animal cells. It can’t be any more meaty 🤷🏻‍♂️ It’s not vegan “sheese” or soy milk or Quorn; it’s real meat! It’s just not cut off the flank of an animal that has to die first..

@Uachtarain By your definition a tumor or a scab is meat.

Not by mine. Meat is the lean and formerly active musculature of an adult very late term aborted farm animal.

Cultured cellular matter isn't meat just because a cell is duplicated many times into a blob of protein grown in a containment system of some kind.

@SteelHands well it’s taken from muscle cells which may well be part of lean, active musculature. Obviously a tumour or scab will not be used.

By the way, real meat may be “real” but I’m happy to eat lab grown meat that hasn’t been contaminated by farm waste or subjected to an overdose of hormones and/or antibiotics

@SteelHands

Don't be so sure. I suspect you're not much for consuming plant based meat substitutes but frankly some of them are getting [i]very[/i] close in taste and even texture. Chicken tenders that taste and eat like chicken breast, fish cutlets that even have that sort of flaky meat texture...and that's [i]plant[/i] based.

That said, for me it comes down to compassion.
Is it more important for you to have the exact sensory experience you want or to not cause another living creature to suffer and die.
Personally if this stuff comes anywhere near butchered meat and is affordable, i'll never choose butchered meat again if given the option.

@Pikachu If you could succeed in convincing people to stop eating livestock you still won't stop nature's horrible death for them through becoming prey to starvation, the weather or other predators.

It's nature's proscription that humans not be strictly herbivores but omnivores where prey animals existed for many millennia.

You'll have to make a choice as to whether you'd cause lions, wolves and coyotes, bears and big cats to become extinct or live with the idea that some animals are meant to be eaten by some that eat them.

Don't be disheartened however. The rule of nature and nature's God made that which is eaten less sensible than that which eats.

As for me, I'd rather be among the carnivores than the food.

@SteelHands

[quote]you still won't stop nature's horrible death for them [/quote]

...and? Are you arguing that if you can't stop suffering and death [i]entirely [/i]then you shouldn't bother to reduce it where you can?
I don't think you probably apply that in your day to day life, right?

[quote]It's nature's proscription that humans not be strictly herbivores but omnivores where prey animals existed for many millennia.[/quote]

This is a naturalistic fallacy combined with an argument from tradition.
Just because we have historically relied on taking animal life doesn't mean that we need to keep doing it or that it is right to do so.
The point of this development is that you can get all the meat protein you as an omnivore require without having to kill an animal to do it.
I can honestly see no objection to that.

[quote]You'll have to make a choice as to whether you'd cause lions, wolves and coyotes, bears and big cats to become extinct [/quote]

No, no, no.
This has [i]nothing[/i] to do with what we're talking about. We're not talking about making it so that no animals will eat other animals.
We're talking specifically about [i]humans[/i] because we have the capability to change the way we consume animal protein and (i hope) the capacity for compassion that should make us want to minimize the suffering of other creatures. Particularly just for our own pleasure.

[quote] The rule of nature and nature's God made that which is eaten less sensible than that which eats.
[/quote]

Really? so a snake is smarter than a parrot? A shark is smarter than a dolphin?
I don't think that really holds up, does it?

@SteelHands [quote]You'll have to make a choice as to whether you'd cause lions, wolves and coyotes, bears and big cats to become extinct or live with the idea that some animals are meant to be eaten by some that eat them.[/quote]

Which is why if you truly care for predator animals like I do (cats for example,) you'd become more plant based. Predators keep population levels of prey in check but over-predation that leads to a decline in prey species (such as what humans do because we now classify as super predators instead of just predators,) leads to a fall in the number of predators in the first place.

Furthermore, predators either kill each other in competition mostly or target juveniles, whereas humans as super predators kill large adults in larger numbers which leads to many other issues. And also predators are by and large not leading to the extinction of animals in the use of herbal medicines. They also don't cook their food.

So if you don't want predators to become extinct, best become plant based, we're unlike any other predatorial species so you can say what we do is unnatural.

[b]https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/modern-humans-have-become-superpredators-180956348/[/b]

[quote]It's nature's proscription that humans not be strictly herbivores but omnivores where prey animals existed for many millennia.[/quote]

I think that's wrong, there's a 98 year old vegan heart surgeon that long since passed away and there's plenty of vegans like meat eaters that live to ripe old age. My theory is that evolution gave us the ability to utilize anything we eat for survival, when you don't have meat, starches are great. This doesn't mean that we HAVE to eat meat unless you have to through some other thing like genetics or allergies. I think [big][c=#BF0000]HAVE to vs. CAN[/c][/big] eat meat make a huge difference in meaning.

Does one HAVE to eat meat or CAN one eat meat.. doesn't mean one HAS to eat meat.

@SteelHands [quote]you still won't stop nature's horrible death for them through becoming prey to starvation[/quote]

Actually what awaits animals due to human predation is far worse than starvation. If I was an animal in the wild, I wouldn't want to die of course but I'd rather die of starvation than assault or torture in animal factories. One video I saw that was in some meat factory and no it wasn't on a vegan channel, it was actually homemade footage was of a few meat factory workers slicing open a cow's stomach while pregnant and they were laughing as she struggled. They found it hilarious, they then ripped the baby who was breathing from her stomach into a meat grinder while watching the cow suffer for some time.

@Pikachu I fking hate a holes that shove their faces into a conversation uninvited and start ranting.

I blocked the bish. You can tell hizerm why.

All I need to say to you is you seem to think that I should care about killing animals that don't know that they sleep, can't remember more than perhaps 15 seconds back in time, and only practical purpose for existing is to be part of the food chain.

If you have a sentiment hang up about meat animals and I don't tell you you're messed up in the head, which you are by the way.

What the hell makes you so arrogant as to come up on me and tell me I should become a damn pussyhead like you and change into a vegetator and don't be myself?

You're used to people telling you that you're such a nice person but they're lying in your face. You aren't nice. You're a pushy jerk that someone needs to push back on you because you ain't about shit and your animal love is fukin sick.

@SteelHands

[quote]can't remember more than perhaps 15 seconds back in time,[/quote]

Incorrect.
Cows have best friends that they remember and rejoice at meeting again even after years of separation. So much for 15 seconds.
Pigs are at least as intelligent as dogs, and just as emotional and loyal.

Additionally, they can and do suffer from fear and pain. So your answer appears to be that because humans use them for food, another living, suffering creature is not worth your compassion.
I call that sad.

[quote]don't tell you you're messed up in the head, which you are by the way.[/quote]

lol um....you just did though...
Also, if you find having compassion for a non-human animal to be mental illness...well did you ever have a dog?


[quote]What the hell makes you so arrogant as to come up on me and tell me I should become a damn pussyhead like you and change into a vegetator and don't be myself?
[/quote]

...pussyhead? Does um...pussyhead mean someone who has compassion?
Is compassion a bad thing?
But no, i didn't tell you to become anything, i asked you some questions about your position.
This appears to have [i]infuriated [/i]you for some reason.

I would love for your next post to be a thoughtful response to what i've asked you and what i've said here....but i won't hold my breath because that was an awful lot of [i]hate [/i]you just expressed at the very [i]idea[/i] that it might be wrong to hurt a living creature when you don't have to.

So while i'd love to see a thoughtful response, what i [i]expect[/i] is for you to block me.

Feel free to prove me wrong....

The floor is yours.

@SteelHands You are mistaken that the animals we most normally eat have such low levels of consciousness.

One only has to live in an area where animals are raised free ranging on grass (as I do) so see how intelligent, socially bonded and emotional they are. They can learn to solve simple problems.
For instance, if given the chance they will hide or run from humans. They learn to recognise human behaviours they have previously experienced.
Cows cooperate to defend each other's young. Both cows and calves below for weeks when separated. Bulls defend their herds and will fight for mating rights.

Remember also that human emotions derive from the same anatomical structures as those of mammals, the hormones, the limbic brain and the hypothalamus. Except for our neocortex, which enables language and logic, animal nervous systems and hormones are extremely similar to ours.

@Pikachu You are apparently a person that lacks fine detail in your thinking. That probably explains why you believe in the deep thinking animal bs that cartoons and other communist "humans are just animals" athiesm was easily able to brainwash into you.

By the way I've had dogs, hamsters, a clutch of mother abandoned wild rabbits, Guinea pigs.. I've rescued a few broken winged birds, and raised a couple six foot boa constrictor snakes. I fed those snakes live rats as often as I could find live prey to give then. It kept them much healthier though they do prefer hamsters and kittens.

Animals that I owned or rescued I would never use as food.

As for compassion you're out of line talking to me as if I were a torturer of animals. Your accusation of my lack of empathy simply because I KNOW animals are animals and don't have the kind of brain to have shit for memorization makes you a total pos.

I think of myself as a fair minded, generous and helpful guy. I DONT remember people or their names as easily as a ten digit sequence, every number sequence I've ever had to memorize, and other things far more useful to me than old Tom Dick and Harry. I can't keep close track of how many times people forgot my name or person also. So that doesn't really mean much to me. That's not a test of high level though process, just so you know. It's a small child's ability that high level thinkers often grow beyond.

I imagine you, hindered that you are, unable to read a blatantly stated discourse on your offensiveness without injecting your own false yet self convinced belief that you can detect my emotional demeanor. Sorry kid. You can't.

But don't worry. If I were to be induced to, (rage??lol) over something as apparently sterile as an internet exchange I would either say that I am as impressively so eloquently that guessing wouldn't be needed.

Can't really imagine why I would want to not choose signing off instead but ya never know. I might decide I should tell someone if I was losing it. I can also say that for some very obvious reasons that you just can't grasp, a person butting in to call someone else names is a horses ass. And I block horses asses.


@hartfire Without a prefrontal cortex your points are moot.

@Pikachu [image deleted]You're not playing by the rules.

Copy pasting to defeat a block?

You're dishonest


Bye.

@SteelHands

[quote]You're dishonest[/quote]

You told me i could tell her why. Sorry if this upset you.

I don't understand why you've reacted so aggressively at being questioned.
It's ok to have different points of view.
That doesn't make me your enemy or a communist or an...um...pussyhead lol

[quote]I think of myself as a fair minded, generous and helpful guy.
[/quote]

Good. So show me that. Show me you're fair-minded and generous.
Or at least show me why you don't think you should be fair minded about compassion to "food" animals or why you should not be generous is your treatment of them.

[quote]Animals that I owned or rescued I would never use as food.
[/quote]

Ah, we're making [i]progress[/i]!
So you are capable of having compassion for non-human animals.
Why is that? Why do you love a dog? Why do you rescue injured or distressed animals?

Ok, have your answer?
So what is preventing you from having that same compassion for animals which we raise for food?
Remember: cows are emotional animals that form friendships and pigs are at least as intelligent and loyal as dogs. Consider also that which animals are "pets" and which are "food" is largely cultural and has little to do with the animal's cognitive ability or awareness.
Dogs are eaten in some countries, guinea pigs in others and dolphins - some of [i]the [/i]most intelligent, emotional, playful creatures on the planet - are slaughtered by the thousand for their meat.

Do you understand that point i'm making?

Recall that we are discussing eating meat that has been grown without the need to cause suffering to another creature.
So take a Deeeeeeep breath, calm the spiteful, venomous reply you're getting ready to put me in my place with and just think.....and then answer:

Why would you be against such an alternative? If you understand that animals are worthy of our compassion do you really have sufficient reason to exclude animals that we traditionally harvest for meat from this compassion.

Again, you're free to leave at any time or block me if you feel that is the best thing for you to do.
Until then, i shall continue to treat you as a rational adult capable of thoughtful consideration and reasoned replies.

The floor is yours.