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Guitarman123 · 31-35, M
@Slade cute ad hominem
ElwoodBlues · M
@blokeinpub claims [quote]Hitler was a national socialist.[/quote]
Actions speak louder than words, and NAZI actions were anti-socialist, destroying unions and privatizing industry. Need details?
On May 2, 1933, Adolf Hitler’s storm troopers occupied all trade union headquarters across Germany, and union leaders were arrested and put in prison or concentration camps. Many were beaten and tortured. All of the unions’ funds – in other words, the workers’ money – were confiscated. Former union officials were put on blacklists, preventing them from finding work.
The Great Depression had spurred increased state ownership in most Western capitalist countries. This also took place in Germany during the last years of the Weimar Republic.[41] However, after the Nazis took power, industries were privatized en masse. Several banks, shipyards, railway lines, shipping lines, welfare organizations, and more were privatized.[42] The Nazi government took the stance that enterprises should be in private hands wherever possible.[43] State ownership was to be avoided unless it was absolutely necessary for rearmament or the war effort, and even in those cases "the Reich often insisted on the inclusion in the contract of an option clause according to which the private firm operating the plant was entitled to purchase it."[43]
In short: Hitler hated unions and loved privately owned industry — [b][i]the polar opposite of a socialist!!![/i][/b]
Actions speak louder than words, and NAZI actions were anti-socialist, destroying unions and privatizing industry. Need details?
On May 2, 1933, Adolf Hitler’s storm troopers occupied all trade union headquarters across Germany, and union leaders were arrested and put in prison or concentration camps. Many were beaten and tortured. All of the unions’ funds – in other words, the workers’ money – were confiscated. Former union officials were put on blacklists, preventing them from finding work.
The Great Depression had spurred increased state ownership in most Western capitalist countries. This also took place in Germany during the last years of the Weimar Republic.[41] However, after the Nazis took power, industries were privatized en masse. Several banks, shipyards, railway lines, shipping lines, welfare organizations, and more were privatized.[42] The Nazi government took the stance that enterprises should be in private hands wherever possible.[43] State ownership was to be avoided unless it was absolutely necessary for rearmament or the war effort, and even in those cases "the Reich often insisted on the inclusion in the contract of an option clause according to which the private firm operating the plant was entitled to purchase it."[43]
In short: Hitler hated unions and loved privately owned industry — [b][i]the polar opposite of a socialist!!![/i][/b]
Slade · 56-60, M
Guitarman123 · 31-35, M
@Slade "I don’t think the Republican Party is a party full of the almighty God nor is the Democratic Party,” he said in a 1958 interview. “They both have their weaknesses. I'm not concerned about telling you what party to vote for. But what I'm saying is this, that we must gain the ballot and use it wisely."
Guitarman123 · 31-35, M
@Slade https://www.history.com/news/martin-luther-king-jr-dr-spock-presidential-campaign
Guitarman123 · 31-35, M
@Slade don't need a reality show. The real world is enough of a shit show
Slade · 56-60, M
@Guitarman123 try to make less sense
Guitarman123 · 31-35, M
@Slade open your eyes and ears and you'll see the shitshow for yourself
MarkPaul · 26-30, M
That's neither true or a close representation. His entire focus was on individuals being treated based on the "content of their (individual) character, not on the behaviour of the entire population. He professed a belief in equality based on personal achievement, not on a broad allocation or an equal distribution of entitlements.
Yes, he did promote the idea of a social safety net, but that is as much related to capitalism as it is to socialism... in fact probably more so because capitalism encourages the expansion of social riches along with the responsibility to extend basic human dignity to all members.
You would do well to stay grounded in reality rather than trying to commandeer historical figures for the favour of your own economic views. Perhaps, you should embrace Eugene V. Debbs instead if your intention is to find a historical American figure with a true socialist orientation.
Yes, he did promote the idea of a social safety net, but that is as much related to capitalism as it is to socialism... in fact probably more so because capitalism encourages the expansion of social riches along with the responsibility to extend basic human dignity to all members.
You would do well to stay grounded in reality rather than trying to commandeer historical figures for the favour of your own economic views. Perhaps, you should embrace Eugene V. Debbs instead if your intention is to find a historical American figure with a true socialist orientation.
MarkPaul · 26-30, M
@Guitarman123 In pure theory, perhaps. In actual practise... it never (NEVER) turns out that way and the privileged few end up with a bounty that is far greater than anything capitalism can deliver. Stop being an ideologue.
Guitarman123 · 31-35, M
@MarkPaul this proves otherwise
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Journeyman_House_Carpenters%27_Association_of_Philadelphia_Promoting_ten-hour_day_1835.jpg
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Journeyman_House_Carpenters%27_Association_of_Philadelphia_Promoting_ten-hour_day_1835.jpg
Guitarman123 · 31-35, M
@MarkPaul as does labour day in general
Abstraction · 61-69, M
In the American definition of 'socialist', yes, where the definition was changed completely to mean anything left of the Republican party. By that measure any country that has a decent health system that the poor can access, for example, is socialist. (Almost all the genuinely democratic countries highest on the Human Development Index.)
Martin Luther King represents the types of Christians who do less pharisaical, holier-than-thou moralising and get out and do something real and practical for the down-and-out, call for justice, truth, compassion. That's my kind of scene, big time. Agree with you @Guitarman123
Martin Luther King represents the types of Christians who do less pharisaical, holier-than-thou moralising and get out and do something real and practical for the down-and-out, call for justice, truth, compassion. That's my kind of scene, big time. Agree with you @Guitarman123
Abstraction · 61-69, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Thanks for your points. Sounds like we mostly disagree on definition of socialism. It's a broad church - you might be more current than me or simply using it differently. However I fundamentally reject the US use of the term which was deliberately used as a tool of political manipulation.
No, what's really funny is that you keep jumping to conclusions about what I think. Do you think I defend capitalism? That'd be wrong for a start. I'm fully aware of and oppose the monopolies present in capitalism.
@Guitarman123 Free education and healthcare are not limited to socialism. Australia is not a socialist country but has both. In fact most of the countries leading the Human Development Index are not socialist and do the same.
No, what's really funny is that you keep jumping to conclusions about what I think. Do you think I defend capitalism? That'd be wrong for a start. I'm fully aware of and oppose the monopolies present in capitalism.
@Guitarman123 Free education and healthcare are not limited to socialism. Australia is not a socialist country but has both. In fact most of the countries leading the Human Development Index are not socialist and do the same.
Guitarman123 · 31-35, M
@Abstraction not limited. But without a socialist outlook, their would be no free healthcare or education. Also the basic rights workers now take for granted wouldn't exist
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@Abstraction Sorry but it is just factual. Most of what people understood as socialism in his day was basically made up by US propaganda.
Even you seem to have internalized that because the definition you gave is nothing but anti soviet nonsense.
I am not jumping to conclusions. I am pointing out some very obvious flaws in your reasoning based on your statements.
And your point about healthcare seems to suggest you bought into the Reaganite idea that socialism = government does stuff.
Even you seem to have internalized that because the definition you gave is nothing but anti soviet nonsense.
I am not jumping to conclusions. I am pointing out some very obvious flaws in your reasoning based on your statements.
And your point about healthcare seems to suggest you bought into the Reaganite idea that socialism = government does stuff.
bijouxbroussard · F
@LosSantosNPC How do [b]you[/b] know ?
BohemianBoo · M
@LosSantosNPC Facts
redredred · M
He was a registered Republican his entire life
Guitarman123 · 31-35, M
@redredred I don’t think the Republican Party is a party full of the almighty God nor is the Democratic Party,” he said in a 1958 interview. “They both have their weaknesses. I'm not concerned about telling you what party to vote for. But what I'm saying is this, that we must gain the ballot and use it wisely."
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@redredred And the GOP is the party of the Klan and has been since desegregation.
bijouxbroussard · F
Guitarman123 · 31-35, M
@bijouxbroussard he identified closer to that than anything else https://mlkglobal.org/2017/11/23/martin-luther-king-on-capitalism-in-his-own-words/
bijouxbroussard · F
@Guitarman123 You don’t live here, so you don’t understand. He never identified as a [b]socialist[/b]. It didn’t mean here then what it means now. The FBI accused him of being a Communist and harassed him for it. Some claim that belief was part of what got him killed.
Guitarman123 · 31-35, M
@bijouxbroussard read the link i sent.
“I imagine you already know that I am much more socialistic in my economic theory than capitalistic… [Capitalism] started out with a noble and high motive… but like most human systems it fell victim to the very thing it was revolting against. So today capitalism has out-lived its usefulness.” – Letter to Coretta Scott, July 18, 1952.
really get rid of one without getting rid of the others… the whole structure of American life must be changed. America is a hypocritical nation and [we] must put [our] own house in order.”- Report to SCLC Staff, May 1967.
“The evils of capitalism are as real as the evils of militarism and evils of racism.” – Speech to SCLC Board, March 30, 1967.
“I imagine you already know that I am much more socialistic in my economic theory than capitalistic… [Capitalism] started out with a noble and high motive… but like most human systems it fell victim to the very thing it was revolting against. So today capitalism has out-lived its usefulness.” – Letter to Coretta Scott, July 18, 1952.
really get rid of one without getting rid of the others… the whole structure of American life must be changed. America is a hypocritical nation and [we] must put [our] own house in order.”- Report to SCLC Staff, May 1967.
“The evils of capitalism are as real as the evils of militarism and evils of racism.” – Speech to SCLC Board, March 30, 1967.
Slade · 56-60, M
[quote]is an[/quote]
Is an? Did JE Ray spend all that time in prison for nothing?
Is an? Did JE Ray spend all that time in prison for nothing?