"You can't say anything any more". I'm sick of hearing it.
Please describe to me what "you can't say any more. Because of wokeness.
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TinyViolins · 31-35, M
Racial comedy used to be something I remember fondly throughout the oughts. Seemed like most prominent comics back then had a bit about race, and they were beloved in spite of it.
Nowadays certain well-intentioned but socially clueless people are out to label as many others as they can a 'racist' and act like jokes told in comedy clubs are a part of the problem of racism. I just wanna know why we have to pretend like there aren't certain differences in different cultures. Not necessarily making a judgement call about them, just pointing out that they're there.
People aren't so dumb that they can't tell the difference between someone making lighthearted observations of our differences and someone negatively stereotyping a certain group in order to disparage them.
Can some people take it too far? Absolutely. But I'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of people have far more important things to worry about than a joke someone made. I'm willing to bet more people would find it funny than they would offensive.
Nowadays certain well-intentioned but socially clueless people are out to label as many others as they can a 'racist' and act like jokes told in comedy clubs are a part of the problem of racism. I just wanna know why we have to pretend like there aren't certain differences in different cultures. Not necessarily making a judgement call about them, just pointing out that they're there.
People aren't so dumb that they can't tell the difference between someone making lighthearted observations of our differences and someone negatively stereotyping a certain group in order to disparage them.
Can some people take it too far? Absolutely. But I'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of people have far more important things to worry about than a joke someone made. I'm willing to bet more people would find it funny than they would offensive.
SunshineGirl · 36-40, F
@TinyViolins "Humour", "banter", "irony" are commonly used as screen to disguise bullying and discriminatory behaviour.
Why is it so important to you to point out "certain differences in different cultures"? I have never witnessed this being used for positive social purposes, only ever to distance and marginalise minority or unpopular groups. I am interested in bringing people closer together and accommodating everyone in my community. That is why I will continue to call out racism for what it is . . even when it is politically incorrect to do so.
Why is it so important to you to point out "certain differences in different cultures"? I have never witnessed this being used for positive social purposes, only ever to distance and marginalise minority or unpopular groups. I am interested in bringing people closer together and accommodating everyone in my community. That is why I will continue to call out racism for what it is . . even when it is politically incorrect to do so.
TinyViolins · 31-35, M
@vorian Not at all. But the sword cuts both ways. Just because you find something offensive doesn't mean everyone else should as well
It's not an echo chamber to point out that many great comics of all races used racial humor as part of their bits. It would be too long and tedious of a list to give you all the names because of how common it was. These were people who brightened up people's lives and don't have any serious accusations of bigotry against them despite their longevity in the limelight.
I could easily accuse you of being in an echo chamber due to you attempting to take jokes seriously. If something isn't funny to you, there's no need to make an issue of it because of your delicate sensibilities. Different people have different tastes. Doesn't automatically make them awful human beings
One specific example I can think of would be RDJ playing a stereotypically black character in the movie Tropic Thunder, who had many controversial lines throughout the movie:
[media=https://youtu.be/u6yOOoD4qk0]
It's not an echo chamber to point out that many great comics of all races used racial humor as part of their bits. It would be too long and tedious of a list to give you all the names because of how common it was. These were people who brightened up people's lives and don't have any serious accusations of bigotry against them despite their longevity in the limelight.
I could easily accuse you of being in an echo chamber due to you attempting to take jokes seriously. If something isn't funny to you, there's no need to make an issue of it because of your delicate sensibilities. Different people have different tastes. Doesn't automatically make them awful human beings
One specific example I can think of would be RDJ playing a stereotypically black character in the movie Tropic Thunder, who had many controversial lines throughout the movie:
[media=https://youtu.be/u6yOOoD4qk0]
TinyViolins · 31-35, M
@SunshineGirl
So does this make it automatically true that all jokes are discriminatory? Does context simply not matter any more? Or do you think people have the capacity to spot the difference between something being harmful and something being edgy? Like say, acknowledging when it's being told in a comedic setting
You're essentially proving my point for me. That jokes cannot be told because someone, somewhere might misconstrue the context and get offended by it. That's the very essence of what my OP is getting at. That "wokeness", however people wish to interpret it, is preventing us from even entertaining the idea that something could be done with comedic intent.
Who said it was important to me? I'm not out here making racial or ethnic jokes. I'm just saying I have fond memories of many comedians doing it, despite being a racial minority myself.
That's because they're jokes. They're not part of an agenda. Comedians aren't banding together to recreate Der Stürmer. It's for entertainment purposes only. Comedians aren't at the forefront of movements to enact radical changes. It's simply individuals making observations and framing them in an absurdist light to make people laugh.
I don't understand why it's so difficult for you to accept that things can be said without any ill intent
"Humour", "banter", "irony" are commonly used as screen to disguise bullying and discriminatory behaviour.
So does this make it automatically true that all jokes are discriminatory? Does context simply not matter any more? Or do you think people have the capacity to spot the difference between something being harmful and something being edgy? Like say, acknowledging when it's being told in a comedic setting
You're essentially proving my point for me. That jokes cannot be told because someone, somewhere might misconstrue the context and get offended by it. That's the very essence of what my OP is getting at. That "wokeness", however people wish to interpret it, is preventing us from even entertaining the idea that something could be done with comedic intent.
Why is it so important to you to point out "certain differences in different cultures"?
Who said it was important to me? I'm not out here making racial or ethnic jokes. I'm just saying I have fond memories of many comedians doing it, despite being a racial minority myself.
I have never witnessed this being used for positive social purposes
That's because they're jokes. They're not part of an agenda. Comedians aren't banding together to recreate Der Stürmer. It's for entertainment purposes only. Comedians aren't at the forefront of movements to enact radical changes. It's simply individuals making observations and framing them in an absurdist light to make people laugh.
I don't understand why it's so difficult for you to accept that things can be said without any ill intent
SunshineGirl · 36-40, F
@TinyViolins I know what racism is and how corrosive it can be, because I grew up in the UK in the 1990s when it was commonly accepted and unchallenged in most social and political settings. We have moved on. We have legislation to protect the rights of everyone. Workplaces are less toxic, people are more likely to progress on their own merits and hard work than what they look like.
It's not "edgy" to use tired stereotypes in an entertainment act, it is just lazy and exploitative. For many of us it is also a regression back to the moronic chaos of the school playground.
It's not "edgy" to use tired stereotypes in an entertainment act, it is just lazy and exploitative. For many of us it is also a regression back to the moronic chaos of the school playground.
TinyViolins · 31-35, M
@SunshineGirl I grew up in Texas in the 90s. One of the first news stories I remember is of a black man being lynched just outside of my city. I've been told to go back to my own country mere blocks away from the hospital I was born in. I've been a racial minority in every place I've ever lived in. To this day, I get profiled against and now have to worry about ICE agents falsely arresting me. I know full well what racism is.
All that considered, jokes don't bother me. I've got actual grown-up concerns to contend with. Some comedian or the people who like them isn't part of the problem.
Stereotypes can be overdone and lazy, I'll concede that point. But there's nothing new under the sun these days. You can say the same about any genre of TV and movies and it'll hold as much valence. At the end of the day it's entertainment and not to be taken too seriously. The people who do take shows and movies seriously tend to be losers with nothing better to occupy their time with. I'm starting to feel the same way about people who think likewise of jokes
All that considered, jokes don't bother me. I've got actual grown-up concerns to contend with. Some comedian or the people who like them isn't part of the problem.
Stereotypes can be overdone and lazy, I'll concede that point. But there's nothing new under the sun these days. You can say the same about any genre of TV and movies and it'll hold as much valence. At the end of the day it's entertainment and not to be taken too seriously. The people who do take shows and movies seriously tend to be losers with nothing better to occupy their time with. I'm starting to feel the same way about people who think likewise of jokes
vorian · 51-55, M
@TinyViolins its a simple question. If you dont or cant answer it thats ok its not compulsary.
What specifically cant you say any more? What words?
What specifically cant you say any more? What words?
basilfawlty89 · 36-40, M
@vorian does it punch up or punch down? What's the intent behind the joke? Is the person making the joke part of that community?
These are important factors.
Otherwise you get "jokes" by white supremacists about black people stealing watermelons and chickens as was common in the early 1900s. I can assure it didn't affect the African American community positively.
These are important factors.
Otherwise you get "jokes" by white supremacists about black people stealing watermelons and chickens as was common in the early 1900s. I can assure it didn't affect the African American community positively.
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SunshineGirl · 36-40, F
@TinyViolins I treat any platform that enables the speaker to connect to millions of people with the utmost seriousness. Make whatever jokes you want with your friends and family privately and take respobsibility for the consequences, but mass media is virtually impossible to escape and therefore a different context entirely.
TinyViolins · 31-35, M
@SunshineGirl You're operating on the premise that all jokes about any group are inherently bad and spoken with ill intent. I'd argue that those types get booed out of open mics and never get to see a single special or sold out crowd. Maybe they get a marginal following on the internet somewhere, but I think we'd both agree that's a potential problem with any kind of influencer.
Ultimately, if you're funny, witty, good-natured, and your message resonates with a wide audience, those are the types that find success and are able to reach millions. A bigoted bully never sees their career take off. I don't share your paternalistic mindset that people can't tell the difference between comedy and prejudice. That comedians are these cruel, hateful bullies and want to openly disparage others and therefore should be censored.
It's just classic liberal sanctimoniousness to get offended on behalf of others that aren't even offended. If you actually got to speak with people of different races, which I don't think you have too much of in your part of the UK, you'd know racial humor is a bonding experience between different kinds of people.
We're not idiots that need white people to tell us how to think and feel. We know when something is meant to be a lighthearted jab and when it isn't. We live through the times when it isn't. A joke is not a big deal to us. It only matters to someone with far too much time on their hands that needs a cause to get upset about in order to make their life less boring.
Ultimately, if you're funny, witty, good-natured, and your message resonates with a wide audience, those are the types that find success and are able to reach millions. A bigoted bully never sees their career take off. I don't share your paternalistic mindset that people can't tell the difference between comedy and prejudice. That comedians are these cruel, hateful bullies and want to openly disparage others and therefore should be censored.
It's just classic liberal sanctimoniousness to get offended on behalf of others that aren't even offended. If you actually got to speak with people of different races, which I don't think you have too much of in your part of the UK, you'd know racial humor is a bonding experience between different kinds of people.
We're not idiots that need white people to tell us how to think and feel. We know when something is meant to be a lighthearted jab and when it isn't. We live through the times when it isn't. A joke is not a big deal to us. It only matters to someone with far too much time on their hands that needs a cause to get upset about in order to make their life less boring.
LeopoldBloom · M
@TinyViolins The difference is whether you're punching up or punching down.
SunshineGirl · 36-40, F
@TinyViolins You have an opinion, I have an opinion. Let us agree to differ.
I was not getting "offended on behalf of others". I have East European heritage and a name that most people cannot pronounce. The other half of my family is Welsh. My opinions are formed partly by personal experience.
I was not getting "offended on behalf of others". I have East European heritage and a name that most people cannot pronounce. The other half of my family is Welsh. My opinions are formed partly by personal experience.