I have traditional conservative values, but i'm probably more a communist than a capitalist. Is this insanity?

@JollyRoger

Thank you. 🤭

@MistyCee There has never been a pure capitalism model in the entire history of mankind.

@Reason10 I'll buy that.

@BlueVeins Back when I was an enlightened centrist I would yell horseshoe theory all day. Now, I think it's the silliest thing in the world. Yes, there are some conclusions that one can come to for right wing or left wing reasons, but that doesn't mean that the coming of that conclusion was logical on either side given the stated goals of those sides.

As far as I understand, horseshoe theory suggests that the two sides are more or less the same, but only have superficial differences. This is silly. saying "I want a racial homogenous nation where the values of monogamy, christianity, and eugenics is enforced" is the same as 'I want a diverse nation where polyamory, secular humanism, and low birth rates are the norm" is goofy.

[quote]Does this sound like a good thing at all? Except for perhaps more sex lol[/quote]

@BRUUH

@ViciDraco I agree with everything you just said, but that's what baffled me.. why is it the libs who embrace co-operative methods of governance while conservative embrace rugged individualism? It would seem to me that tribalism is a much more sane way to govern if we want traditional family values and cohesive social norms to flourish. Meanwhile, if you want a live and let live world where people have low birthrates and tons of gay sex, then rugged individualism is like the only philosophy of governance that could allow that.

@BRUUH The conservative embrace of rugged individualism is largely economic selfishness. By abdicating the responsibilities inherent in contributing to the tribe, you are able to keep more for yourself. Further, by narrowly defining who does or does not belong to your tribe, you are able to reduce the number of people you are having to contribute to. That's generally not all conservatives though. I think social conservatives outnumber economic conservatives. But a lot of those social values stem back to economics.

Let's take marriage, for example. Marriage was not originated to promote human happiness. It was not originated to raise children. There were family units before marriage. Some would stick together. Some would meet then separate. They worked in all kinds of various ways from tribe to tribe and sometimes within a tribe. Formal marriage, however, was a recognition of a family unit comprising one and only one man and one or more women. These formal recognitions were made to formalize inheritance rights, to manage property, and other economic concerns. It also "protected" men from concerns of pouring resources into potentially raising another man's child by reducing the incidence of uncertain parentage.

Traditional Marriage is not the one man and one woman who love each other model that people think of when the words are used today. Traditional Marriage was an economic arrangement very much designed in favor of rugged individualism and against communal tribalism.

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The reason liberals are more accepting of a wide array of personal behaviors is because they tend to work the other way. Instead of trying to shrink the area of responsibilities to self and family, they seek to expand it across the entire community. This means diminishing returns for harder work as those who do more are covering for those who do less. The people who do less are also guilty of economic selfishness. But there is more social self interest that appeals to people as well. Part of keeping the sphere of responsibilities large means being more open and accepting to each other. You excuse things they do that you wouldn't do because you want them to stay in that sphere. And if you are making those tolerances for them, they in turn are expected by social contract to make those tolerances for you.

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Ultimately, the big conservative/ liberal split in the US right now centers around how big "the tribe" should be. Who are the people you should care about and expend resources on. Conservatives seek smaller tribes and liberals seek larger tribes.

Smaller tribes are better able to agree on social norms, giving rise to things such as what you consider family values. This comes at the cost of apathy towards the well being of those outside the tribe.

Larger tribes are better able to leverage diverse skillets to build more efficient economies that ensure everyone has at least the basics. This comes at the cost of finding social norms such large and diverse groups can agree on.

@ViciDraco Wow.... I hope I'm not the only one who reads this! Well expressed - very humanistic!

@BizSuitStacy

Especially given the track record of communism in practice. 🙄

@Reason10 I have to disagree about your statement of Capitalism being the sole reason for the success of human activity as versus collectivism.

Collectivism is the reason we survive: If there is nobody to 'trade' with then what good is capitalism?
Collectivism is the concern for the welfare of your family, friends and neighbours. In times when people were shunned byi their commtunity they perished as they had nobody to work with, socialize with or even to trade with..
Collectivism gets a bad rap when you put it in the context of slackerds not contributing to the group OR when the choice of what you can do is limited by someone else dictating what you must do (rigid communism). On the other hand, capitalism has its bad side too: When the capitalist fails to reinvest in the community by hoarding goods and controlling prices/availability of them, dictating to whom the goods may be sold to and subjugating others to work for them at a dictated wage instead of a fair wage.
All people need encouragement to be involved with their society. It's when one or the other of these two economic systems becomes too forceful that society fails.

And: Money as the root of all evil relates mainly to avarice, lust for it and the disregard for the needs of those who do not have ienough of it to survive.

@BRUUH I totally agree that political ideologies adopt names for whatever reason. But it still begs the question of what is meant by "traditional conservative." I think it's confusing if you don't define the phrase.

@BRUUH My HS History teacher told us:
"Freedom of speech...yes you are free to say anything you wish, but there may be consequences for you saying it.
With freedoms come duties and responsibilities."