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This is the worst place to ask- both sides here require you have a hive mind whereas in RL people have varying views on both and would happily be friends with and have a relationship with people of different views.
@BritishFailedAesthetic My friend @BlueVeins is pretty cool and interested in new thoughts and ideas tho.
JollyRoger · 70-79, M
@BritishFailedAesthetic I 'sort of' agree with you that in this forum there is no centricity at this moment. It seems both leftists and rightists are putting forth their best defenses by showing their aggressions toward each other.
@BRUUH classification of civil rights and social goals along lines of morality can't be done: People are individuals and although they may be socialistically inclined or capitalistically inclined, you won't find true altruistic values among them - each is still a 'ME FIRST - THEN YOU" person both for sexual values and also for monetary values. I think this is why the 'Horseshoe Theory" is espoused - the same ends are achieved by different means and both are self-serving when you analyze them. My example on this is the "Southern Baptists" who are against abortion (a liberty) but who support the 2nd amendment (a liberty).
@BRUUH classification of civil rights and social goals along lines of morality can't be done: People are individuals and although they may be socialistically inclined or capitalistically inclined, you won't find true altruistic values among them - each is still a 'ME FIRST - THEN YOU" person both for sexual values and also for monetary values. I think this is why the 'Horseshoe Theory" is espoused - the same ends are achieved by different means and both are self-serving when you analyze them. My example on this is the "Southern Baptists" who are against abortion (a liberty) but who support the 2nd amendment (a liberty).
ViciDraco · 41-45, M
@BritishFailedAesthetic I'm rather torn by the purity testing both sides do. I am very much a leftist. But I still try to think through both sides. Given the outlook of OP, I think his mixed view makes perfect sense for the outcomes that are important for him. In not in agreement that his outcomes are the best for society. But knowing what he wants to achieve, i can admit this mix makes sense
JollyRoger · 70-79, M
@ViciDraco And so it is - Really! We all make (and need to make) choices that benefit our 'self' - that's what survival is about. Society is just the company we keep so we don't get bored talking to the trees and animals that make our world the best place. (This is Earth Sunday).
ViciDraco · 41-45, M
@JollyRoger Saying society is just the company we keep so that we don't get bored is like saying good is just the just we ingest to give our tongues a sensation.
Society is actually a tool constructed in order to make survival easier and more efficient. It was arranged in our own self interest and it worked well enough that we who built societies propagated. The human animal is a social creature and not very well adapted to solo survival over long periods.
Society is actually a tool constructed in order to make survival easier and more efficient. It was arranged in our own self interest and it worked well enough that we who built societies propagated. The human animal is a social creature and not very well adapted to solo survival over long periods.
@ViciDraco I agree with everything you just said, but that's what baffled me.. why is it the libs who embrace co-operative methods of governance while conservative embrace rugged individualism? It would seem to me that tribalism is a much more sane way to govern if we want traditional family values and cohesive social norms to flourish. Meanwhile, if you want a live and let live world where people have low birthrates and tons of gay sex, then rugged individualism is like the only philosophy of governance that could allow that.
ViciDraco · 41-45, M
@BRUUH The conservative embrace of rugged individualism is largely economic selfishness. By abdicating the responsibilities inherent in contributing to the tribe, you are able to keep more for yourself. Further, by narrowly defining who does or does not belong to your tribe, you are able to reduce the number of people you are having to contribute to. That's generally not all conservatives though. I think social conservatives outnumber economic conservatives. But a lot of those social values stem back to economics.
Let's take marriage, for example. Marriage was not originated to promote human happiness. It was not originated to raise children. There were family units before marriage. Some would stick together. Some would meet then separate. They worked in all kinds of various ways from tribe to tribe and sometimes within a tribe. Formal marriage, however, was a recognition of a family unit comprising one and only one man and one or more women. These formal recognitions were made to formalize inheritance rights, to manage property, and other economic concerns. It also "protected" men from concerns of pouring resources into potentially raising another man's child by reducing the incidence of uncertain parentage.
Traditional Marriage is not the one man and one woman who love each other model that people think of when the words are used today. Traditional Marriage was an economic arrangement very much designed in favor of rugged individualism and against communal tribalism.
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The reason liberals are more accepting of a wide array of personal behaviors is because they tend to work the other way. Instead of trying to shrink the area of responsibilities to self and family, they seek to expand it across the entire community. This means diminishing returns for harder work as those who do more are covering for those who do less. The people who do less are also guilty of economic selfishness. But there is more social self interest that appeals to people as well. Part of keeping the sphere of responsibilities large means being more open and accepting to each other. You excuse things they do that you wouldn't do because you want them to stay in that sphere. And if you are making those tolerances for them, they in turn are expected by social contract to make those tolerances for you.
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Ultimately, the big conservative/ liberal split in the US right now centers around how big "the tribe" should be. Who are the people you should care about and expend resources on. Conservatives seek smaller tribes and liberals seek larger tribes.
Smaller tribes are better able to agree on social norms, giving rise to things such as what you consider family values. This comes at the cost of apathy towards the well being of those outside the tribe.
Larger tribes are better able to leverage diverse skillets to build more efficient economies that ensure everyone has at least the basics. This comes at the cost of finding social norms such large and diverse groups can agree on.
Let's take marriage, for example. Marriage was not originated to promote human happiness. It was not originated to raise children. There were family units before marriage. Some would stick together. Some would meet then separate. They worked in all kinds of various ways from tribe to tribe and sometimes within a tribe. Formal marriage, however, was a recognition of a family unit comprising one and only one man and one or more women. These formal recognitions were made to formalize inheritance rights, to manage property, and other economic concerns. It also "protected" men from concerns of pouring resources into potentially raising another man's child by reducing the incidence of uncertain parentage.
Traditional Marriage is not the one man and one woman who love each other model that people think of when the words are used today. Traditional Marriage was an economic arrangement very much designed in favor of rugged individualism and against communal tribalism.
‐--------‐---
The reason liberals are more accepting of a wide array of personal behaviors is because they tend to work the other way. Instead of trying to shrink the area of responsibilities to self and family, they seek to expand it across the entire community. This means diminishing returns for harder work as those who do more are covering for those who do less. The people who do less are also guilty of economic selfishness. But there is more social self interest that appeals to people as well. Part of keeping the sphere of responsibilities large means being more open and accepting to each other. You excuse things they do that you wouldn't do because you want them to stay in that sphere. And if you are making those tolerances for them, they in turn are expected by social contract to make those tolerances for you.
‐----------
Ultimately, the big conservative/ liberal split in the US right now centers around how big "the tribe" should be. Who are the people you should care about and expend resources on. Conservatives seek smaller tribes and liberals seek larger tribes.
Smaller tribes are better able to agree on social norms, giving rise to things such as what you consider family values. This comes at the cost of apathy towards the well being of those outside the tribe.
Larger tribes are better able to leverage diverse skillets to build more efficient economies that ensure everyone has at least the basics. This comes at the cost of finding social norms such large and diverse groups can agree on.
JollyRoger · 70-79, M
@ViciDraco Wow.... I hope I'm not the only one who reads this! Well expressed - very humanistic!