I'm curious to hear what trans people and allies think of trans women in women sports.

@Sharon if a person born female has natural hormones that gives her the strength of a man, I don’t think anyone has an issue with that. People are all different and we want embrace our differences. The issue is when the usual ability is made by science or by social mandate. Most men are stronger than most women, just like most women are more agile and graceful than must men. Where neither attribute matters then let everyone compete.

@Sharon What about in sports where physical strength is a relevant factor?

@Pikachu I'm going to step in here and say that estrogen treatments reduce physical strength in both men and women, because of their nature. That's why they insist on doing all those tests on transgender athletes. They want to make sure they've sufficiently transitioned for it to not be unfair.

As far as the other way around, if a person who was born female wants to participated men's sports, that's up to them.

@LordShadowfire

But does it do enough? Did Lia Thomas go through those treatments?

@Pikachu

@LordShadowfire lol well i don't k @LordShadowfire

A quick google suggests that she did...which i guess also brings into question how much this actually levels the playing field in the case of people who have undergone male puberty.

@Pikachu I don't know. Definitely something worth looking into. I don't imagine it would be as bad as South Park portrayed it...

@Pikachu That's a good argument for not allowing strong athletes to compete against weaker ones. Some sports where physical strength is a relevant factor, divide competitors into classes. That can be done regardless of the competitor's sex, either current or at birth.

@Sharon

Well i'm just trying to get your answer to the corollary to your point.
You said "There is certainly no reason why men and women should not compete against each other in sport where physical strength is not a relevant factor".
...so you you think there is a reason that men and women should not compete against each other is sports where it is?
I understand that combat sports like boxing or wrestling have weight classes but most other sports still depend heavily on physical strength and don't divide into classes...except between male and female.

Let's take the famous Lia Thompson example. She was a mediocre competitor in the male category and absolutely dominated the female category. Do you think that the swimmers should have been divided up into classes to mitigate that domination?
Wouldn't the conclusion of that process just result in cis men, trans women and cis women being divided into separate categories?

@Pikachu Sports that depend heavily on physical strength should all be divided into classes by strengtyh. Sex, per se, is irrelevant.

Yes. That way everyone would be competing agianst others of broadly similar abilities.

No because there would be considerable overlap between those groups. Grouping purely by sex presumes the weakest man ever is still stronger than the strongest woman.

@Sharon


No i don't think so. I'd agree that there is overlap but the majority of women cannot compete with men. Trans women who have undergone hormone therapy will tend to be weaker than men but stronger than cis women....so it seems like you'd still end up with the system we have now plus another 1 or to for trans people🤷‍♀️

@Pikachu Correct, They may have less testosterone, but they still have the muscle mass
and lung capacity they had before. They might be a slight bit weaker than they were before.
But still much stronger than if they had been born female, with the same body structure.

We have all seen the pictures of Lia Thomas standing next to the gal that came in second.

It looked like an NFL player standing next to a Jockey.

@Pikachu That's the point, though. Weaker than men. As in no longer able to participate in men's sports. So I guess they should just not be allowed to participate in sports at all?

What if someone was never as strong as a "typical" male athlete even before transitioning? Can she participate?

@LordShadowfire

Maybe they should have their own category.🤷‍♀️

@Pikachu What about women who naturally have a high amount of testosterone in their bodies, but have never had a single hormone treatment in their lives? Should they also be excluded?

@LordShadowfire

To me the key part of this question is male puberty. Some women are going to be absolute beasts...and they're still not going to be much above the average man.

There will always be women with greater and lesser aptitude for sport. But it seems to me that athletes like Lia Thompson would mean eventually that women's sport was almost entirely dominated by trans women. Should cis women being excluded?

@Pikachu They should, but they will not except that. THEY ARE WOMEN!!! DAMMIT!! LOL.

To have a separate category, would mean something else to them, which by all accounts
they ARE something else, something in between. That is where their category could be,
right in between. Unless of course a trans man competes in mens sports, but we do
not have to worry about that, because they will not be taking away any medals, or
scholarships from men, or boys.

That brings up another question. Should trans men be able top use steroids in order
to get an edge up on the bio men? I think they should.

@Pikachu Thats a good question. They will not be excluded. But many will decide not to
compete if a trans person is competing against them. The sad thing is that once a transwomen
breaks a record, the chances of a Bio women breaking it, is very slim. It will take a while
but if things keep going the way they are, eventually all records in womens strength and
speed sports will be set by biological men. That should upset the feminists, but for some reason
it doesn't.

@Pikachu That's my point. It goes beyond just male puberty. I used to know a woman who was cis, but you would have been forgiven for thinking she might have been trans. Girl was built like a linebacker. It happens. So what's the difference between that and a transwoman who was formerly a male athlete of moderate ability?

@LordShadowfire

Well the difference is that unless hormone therapy really brings trans women down to the same level as cis women, cis women will become all but absent from the trop rankings of women's sports.
Does that seem fair?

@Pikachu I think I need to clarify that point. I'm saying that we needn't condern ourselves with those cases where physical strength is not a factor. We can the concentrate of thoses cases where it is. That doesn't necessarily mean that men and women should not compete agaist each other in such cases. Any unfair advantage either sex has can be mitigated or negated by dividing competitors into classes by relevant factors.

@LordShadowfire makes some very pertinent points above -
and

Some time ago I heard of 15 year of female weight lifter who could lift 50kg more than a 17 year old boy at the same gym. If you needed someone to do a bit of heavy lifting, which of those would you select to do the job? Another example I often use is than the average man is taller than the average woman. If height is a relevant qualificaation for a job, do you employ a man; a woman; or a tall person?

@Sharon


But wouldn't that just be a crazy amount of subdividing and generally result in a gender-based division anyway?

@Pikachu No, it would level the playing field, just as it's done in some combat sports. There might be some sex bias (I don't see how gender comes into it) but it would be ability rather than sex based.

@Sharon

Well by gender-based i mean you'd probably end up with mostly cis men in one category, most cis women in another category and most trans people in another category or two as well.

But maybe not. I guess i don't know to what extent hormone therapy levels the playing field between cis and trans people.

@Pikachu I agree there probably would be some sex bias but it wouldn't be sex based. I don't understand what relevance you think gender has though.