On the war in Ukraine we're mad not to use the tools of diplomacy to try to end the war. I'm sure that you want to jump the gun on me now and tell me that I'm a Russian stooge etc. Heck, I'm not even using the dreadful words of negotiation and peace here. No, what I'm saying yet again is why not try to stop the war? Putin will not fall this year or the next, and by the time he does we'll all be really out of pocket money. Now don't expect Europe to fund the reconstruction because something like that always comes after the above mentioned usage of the tools of diplomacy. Jaw, jaw is always better than war, war, remember that Churchill saying? Heck, we're all coming out of a pandemic and we're still funding a war instead of ending one. Utter madness!
PS I'm sorry that I've left some of the discussions on faith unaswered as yet on here. It was because of ill health. I'll try to bring those to the front too next. But lets move to this one yet again first
I agree. Slawovski or what his name is, claims he's fighting for Ukraine but he isn't interested in a diplomatic solution. So instead he invites war and terror to Ukrainan streets and promise he'll never leave his people, and is a hero for that? It's so fucked up.
And us Europeans are told to sympathize with him and Ukraine, but to blindly hate Russia. Including all citizens who has nothing to do with the war.
I think it's horrible what these presidents puts their people through. It's them I despise not the victims - the citizens.
This is not an accepted or popular opinion in Europe so I only share it online and irl with a few trusted people.
The day Putin started the war, he gave a speech, announcing that he's embarking on a 2-day special operation, to unify the Russia, by brining Kyiiv, the birthplace of the Russian Empire under Russia's control, and bringing to justice the Nazis.
It's admirable that you want to see peace, a sentiment shared by many, myself included. I, however, seem to be very confused, and can't help but wonder, if the fastest way to end hostilities, is simply for the Wagner group mercenaries, the Chechen military and the Russian military, to pull out of the Ukraine, and stop their daily missile/air attacks on Ukraine's civilians and infrastructure.
What am I missing here? Did Ukraine invade Russian? Chechnya? Is the Ukraine air force conducting raids against Moscow? Russian power stations? Did Ukraine stop grain exports? Fertilizer exports?
@val70 [quote]Right, no solution still. Another year or more of war to come then. I've said my peace[/quote]
You seem to be totally unaware of Putin's speech, on Feb 21, 2022, 3 days before he sent his troops into Ukraine.
He said that [b][i][u]Ukraine is not just a neighboring country for us. It is an inalienable part of our own history, culture and spiritual space[/u][/i][/b]. He also claimed that Ukraine is not a real country, and it was invented by Lenin in 1917, so he was going to reunite with Mother Russia. It wasn't about the Crimea, it wasn't about the separatists regions. It was about the entire country.
You can wish for peace, until the end of days, but when someone walks into your home, starts beating you up, raping, looting, destroying, and killing your family, with the declared intention of wanting you home, what would you recommend as a "diplomatic" solution?
China has a 12 point peace plan but it got rubbished by the west and particularly Biden. If they can get the two sides to talk why not let them get on with it. This is just becoming a proxy war more and more by the day. The more and bigger weapons sent the more it is being escalated.
It all started off from badly drawn borders yet again, like it has in many places across the world. Certain countries were fiddling about again and poking their noses in. Putin got fed up with people encroaching onto his borders. When Zelensky was running for president he actually said one of his goals was to sort out the Donbas region (there had been a war there for several years where they wanted to separate from Ukraine and return to Russia) Putin was actually prepared to talk to him to sort it out) instead of talking Zelensky upped it and sent more troops to try and prevent it leaving. What the world should have done was make them talk thousands had already died. It was always going to escalate.
@Human1000 It started out way back because a border was put in the wrong place, maybe in future when people break up a country it would be prudent to ask the people who actually live there which part goes where. In this case the Donbas lots of the people considered themselves Russian and not Ukrainian, it is why the separatist conflict started there which has now been going on for years in which many people on both sides had died. None of the people now condemning did anything to stop or try and sort it out. They let it build up and up. Instead of getting Putin and whoever it was that was in charge to talk way back then when it started. It was always going to escalate. The current policy of sending more and bigger weapons the Ukraine is not going to solve it, the bigger weapons they have the bigger Russia will use against them. The sanctions are nonsense and largely ineffective now in the modern world, they backfire on the countries imposing them they are suffering more than Russia, how long are the people of the European union countries going to be willing or more importantly be able to pay more and more for their energy, food, etc before they revolt against their own governments.
@Longleggedlady Another inconvenient side effect of the Russian invasion is it gives the Ukrainian government the political cover to forcibly impose a single culture on the entire country by force. So in a twisted way the Russian government gave the Ukrainian ultra nationalists the political cover to carry out their agenda.
While I agree and wish we could stop the war as soon as possible it is a naive thought and wish. Diplomacy needs to come back but as long as Russia keeps slaughtering the people of Ukraine I don't see that happening. Diplomacy should and can work in conflicts where there is no clear right or wrong like the Palestine/Israel one, where both sides commit acts of aggression. The war in Ukraine is an imperialist one. Russia is clearly the aggressor with Ukraine only defending itself. Any win for Putin would create a precedent for other imperialist nations.
@val70 It is very messy but in this war clearly one party chose to invade and another to defend. I made a point that I would like you to adress. The precedent for imperial nations if Putin would win territory the violent way in Ukraine. It would certainly be inspiration for China in regards to Taiwan.
@FragileHeart Do you really think that China didn't do that before with Tibet? You can't compare apples and oranges. Tibet had a much bigger claim to independence than Taiwan and it's now not even regarded as that. No independence for Tibet because it suited the political situation then and now. The present war is very much again like a Vietnam/Afghanistan-style of operation. I think that's even why Biden wanted to get out of Afghanistan. It makes indeed a lot more sense if one looks at wars going on around the world that way. Sapping the strength out of countries. But then again, that analysis is faulty too. Russia will never give up on anything Russian, and that's a sure thing even without Putin
"what I'm saying yet again is why not try to stop the war?"
Peskov said the other day that the four 'annexed' regions were not up for discussion. Bearing that in mind , how do you think a negotiated settlement is possible ?
@RodionRomanovitch Were you really around when Bosnian was happening? Are you really trying to attempt to hijack both history and rationality by claiming there's nothing else to do than to wait till someone drops? What do you think is possible for those people in the war itself? Making fools of them like the Free Poles were made after World Two? Several Free Polish generals were retired then in utter poverty. There are deeds done right now that will rebounce on those in power today. All because somehow people like yourself think that people who don't want war war to continue need to find a solution instead of those doing it. Madness!
@FragileHeart Where am I claiming that? Where am I saying that defending oneself is even useless? I've been saying this last year and now that in the end it's all going be war war with jaw jaw. You really think that Ukraine will get peace next year? Will get everthing that they wanted? That Russia will just pack it all in and go sit on its hands? Or even Europe will hand out billions to rebuilt the country? It's called being a realist. But don't take my word for it. Just wait and see :-)
This war was only possible because of O'Biden and the climate cultists' demonic agenda.
When oil was below 3 dollars a barrel Putin was irrelevant. Now that oil is around 4 dollars a barrel Putin is emboldened and well funded.
The US deciding to abandon gas, oil and coal for the most part has created created chaos and a dangerous world.
IMHO, Ukraine is nothing more than a corrupt money laundering machine for the leftist globalist technocratic elite. The millions of lives being lost and the overall destruction could have all been avoided.
This is a great evil and the virtue signaling by the left regarding this unnecessary war has turned the world upside down.
The US does not want it to end. Some are making too much money out of that war. Ukraine's reconstruction has already been planned and this will go to major big name companies as always.
please explain to me just how you see this diplomacy working... in full detail, no cliches, no pious statements about peace.
who will negotiate? where? who will guarantee the negotiations? who will offer what? and in exchange for what? how long will it take?
you know the sort of things we need to hear. you have obviously exercised your brain to its outer limits to draw up your original post. you must be able to find some answers in there.
@Yulianna Try, try, try again to stop the war by diplomatic means. It's simple, but don't take my word for it. Take Bosnia in the past. Yes, the war will last that long too. Better prepare yourself to the disappointment
There was a segment on "60 minutes" last night where several Ukraine military women (medical professionals, not combat) detailed their capture and torture, which include electric shock. They were eventually repatriated to Ukraine in exchange for Russian combat officer POWs.
@val70 if Kamala Harris wants to double down on her "Putin War Crimes" assertions, she could bring up the fact that Russia is in violation of the Geneva convention by refusing red cross visits to POW camps.
@SusanInFlorida Yes, but somehow no-one wants to bring in the international organisations on this one. Smacks more like a private war going on between two big powers
@val70 this is the first time american weapons have been used agains actual russians. most wars in the past 30 years were proxy wars. american hardware against russian/chinese hardware, but 3rd world nations performing the test cycles for us.
I personally feel that the ship has sailed on using diplomacy. I don’t agree with the way the war is being fought. Like how Ukraine shouldn’t do any strikes in Russia. Now it is strange that our government will give all kinds of money and weapons to Ukraine but we get mad if someone gives weapons to Russia. I get it. We don’t want communism to prevail. Maybe the US does stick there nose in everyone’s business sort of like the US is trying to be the world’s police. To be fair all the other countries want to police the world to. But they plan things out. Sort of proactive. The US seems to be reactive to things involving foreign countries. I am for the US and democracy and freedom.
@specman Nah, that ship never sails. But yes, why is the US trying to meddle there and not in Africa? Want to spend their money there and not in Afghanistan?
@specman Communism? None of the parties involved are communist. Putin's Russia is more tsarist than communist and Ukraine is progressing towards some kind of democracy.
Personally I don't know what's going on, why it started or why it's still going on. Politics and world news has always thrown me because there are lots of information missing or embellished. I just want it to stop!
@LeopoldBloom True, but there's a hole in your thinking there. TR's America wasn't regarded as a world power yet. He knew how to pick and chose. He didn't really take on the European powers in Morocco at the time for one. And rightly so, because who wants to come up looking foolish indeed
@val70 I brought him up because that was the first sign the US was a world power. TR also sent the Great White Fleet around the world as a demonstration of American naval power. We didn't become a recognized world power in the eyes of the rest of the world until World War One. But TR started the process which is why he's on Mt. Rushmore, while Calvin Coolidge isn't.
@val70 Any historian who thinks the US was eager to go to war with Russia in 1945 should get a different job. Maybe if a psychopath like Curtis LeMay had been in the European theater instead of the Pacific, it might have happened, but there would have been little support for it and the commander would have risked court-martial.
In hindsight, maybe we could have gotten away with it as the US was in far better shape than the USSR at that time. Instead, the line was drawn between eastern and western Europe, followed by the formation of NATO, and later the Warsaw Pact. Calling this "appeasement" is ignorant and insulting.
"Appeasement" usually refers to a situation like Neville Chamberlain's agreement with Hitler. However, the UK was not prepared to go to war with Germany in 1938, so what Chamberlain really did was a strategy to buy time rather than a spineless capitulation.
