On the war in Ukraine we're mad not to use the tools of diplomacy to try to end the war. I'm sure that you want to jump the gun on me now and tell me that I'm a Russian stooge etc. Heck, I'm not even using the dreadful words of negotiation and peace here. No, what I'm saying yet again is why not try to stop the war? Putin will not fall this year or the next, and by the time he does we'll all be really out of pocket money. Now don't expect Europe to fund the reconstruction because something like that always comes after the above mentioned usage of the tools of diplomacy. Jaw, jaw is always better than war, war, remember that Churchill saying? Heck, we're all coming out of a pandemic and we're still funding a war instead of ending one. Utter madness!
PS I'm sorry that I've left some of the discussions on faith unaswered as yet on here. It was because of ill health. I'll try to bring those to the front too next. But lets move to this one yet again first
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China has a 12 point peace plan but it got rubbished by the west and particularly Biden. If they can get the two sides to talk why not let them get on with it. This is just becoming a proxy war more and more by the day. The more and bigger weapons sent the more it is being escalated.
It all started off from badly drawn borders yet again, like it has in many places across the world. Certain countries were fiddling about again and poking their noses in. Putin got fed up with people encroaching onto his borders. When Zelensky was running for president he actually said one of his goals was to sort out the Donbas region (there had been a war there for several years where they wanted to separate from Ukraine and return to Russia) Putin was actually prepared to talk to him to sort it out) instead of talking Zelensky upped it and sent more troops to try and prevent it leaving. What the world should have done was make them talk thousands had already died. It was always going to escalate.
@Longleggedlady There's so much wrong with your appraisal it's hard to know where to start. Ignoring your revisionism , let's just go with the Chinese 'peace plan'.
Point 1 mentions respecting the sovereignty of states , but nowhere in the plan do they call for a Russian withdrawal. Do you notice a glaring contradiction here ?
@RodionRomanovitch The Russians are still in the Donbas which is part of Russia now. The people there had been fighting before Russia went in to achieve leaving the Ukraine and rejoining Russia. The Donbas has a big Russian population that never wanted to be Ukrainian to start with. The quicker that this is accepted the quicker the end to this will happen. It has become a proxy war of let's see if western tanks etc are better than Russian tanks etc now.
@RodionRomanovitch All depends what you what to do. Sit on your butt and let the war continue. Sure, lets do that. But don't take it from solely me, there's another year of war war to come and I do hope that you're comfortable there sitting on your butt whilst than going on. It will last a very long while yet
@RodionRomanovitch Sorry man but that is just total bullshit. The situation in Donbass was not manufactured. Rewriting history to fit your "Russia bad" narrative doesn't make it so.
The separatist movement came about because of the US backed Maidan coup run by far right extremists and created a civil war. That is squarely on the shoulders of the Ukrainians.
That being said they had no intention of joining Russia either. Mostly people wanted to be left the F alone. But pretending Russia leaving will magically fix everything is conveniently ignoring everything before 2021.
Even if Russia leaves the Ukraine can't just pretend the civil war didn't happen.
It is cute you accuse others of revisionism and do it yourself.
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow One can excuse the former extreme right wingers in Ukraine to fight for their country, but I believe it's utter madness to keep on supporting them in a belief that they will win everything back. Somehow in the centers of power it's getting harder and harder to think straight these days. There's no win win in sight for those in power in Ukraine, and probably they be treated the same like the Free Poles after World War Two after the war novelty wears off. I mean, heck, even FDR knived Churchill in the back whilst the war was still going on because he wanted to get rid of the British Empire
@Longleggedlady you are deeply ignorant, either willfully so or through lack of ability to process and analyse information. it would be best for all if you stuck towhat you know. unfounded opinions such as yours do nothing but harm in the world, no matter how much satisfaction it gives you to express them.
@val70 I would not say they are former far right. I mean shit you still see various units of the Ukrainian military sporting patches from Right Sector a neo nazi gang and former president Poroshenko was posing with soldiers wearing SS death's head patches. And that was before the war with Russia.
Zelensky because of both the war and being the new chosen one with US backing is getting away with alot. Crackdowns on his country even further starting in 2019 and centralizing power. Even Freedom House ranked Ukraine behind Hungary which is viewed as the new far right power in eastern Europe.
I think if this war ends you will have the authoritarian Russia and an authoritarian Ukraine backed by the US and who knows if they will go back to the attempts to ethnically cleanse Russian Ukrainians. And who is next? Polish Ukrainians? Hungarian Ukrainians? Alot of the far right in Ukraine idolize Stepan Bandera who got his start mass murdering Polish Ukrainians. The Polish Ukrainian community here in town are very worried that will start up again.
@Yulianna Gosh, are you censoring there then? Great example of how a new democrate state should work indeed. Try reading about free speech first. It's not only about speaking against power
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Yes, I know, and no-one outside Russia is seeing the torment of that muleta at hand. It's all so symbolic at times. Plus there's for sure dark history there too in the Ukrainian nationalism that's now in power. I wish someone would actually admit that. What was there during the German occupation again? Total silence
@val70 censoring? oh, is that how you respond to challenge? you are free to say what you want, as i am free to point out the hollow ignorance of your position.
or does free speech run in only one direction in your mind? maybe that is the case, yes.
@Yulianna Yes, you are. And anyone else has the right to an opinion too. It's called not talking the other down and not using force to silence the other
@val70 i see, you object to the very tactics used against the russian people by the russian government whose actions are supported by your stance on negotiation. well, that's intellectually consistent.
@Yulianna Nah, I'm not even all for self-interest. I call a duck when it kwacks. You were doing that there. No swan, I can tell. But don't mind me, I'm for peace
@val70 you are not for peace. you are for other people giving up their lands, their lives, their existence as a free nation, so that you can feel good.
@Yulianna There you go again. Using all the power you have there to iintimidate me. That's kwacking alright. Good luck proving democracy really works there with that attitude
@val70 tell me that my assessment of you is incorrect, and tell me why.
[quote]you are not for peace. you are for other people giving up their lands, their lives, their existence as a free nation, so that you can feel good. [/quote]
@Yulianna You throw around alot of insults but not much else.
[quote]you are not for peace. you are for other people giving up their lands, their lives, their existence as a free nation, so that you can feel good.[/quote]
Advocating for the continuation of war is not for peace that is for sure. And that is one sure fire way to make sure people keep dying.
And for what? Imaginary lines on a map that do not in any way take in consideration the people who live there.
And the idea either nation involved are free nations they have only been free for a select few for awhile now.
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow your quote from my post is not an insult, it is a disitillation of the position taken by the person to whom it was addressed. if it is her position, how can it be an insult to state it? she should freely and proudly admit it. if it is not her position, she is free to challenge it and explain just what her position is. in either case, she can defend the intellectual and moral basis of her position.
it is, frankly, sad to see people react with such raw emotion to being challenged, that they see any contradiction as an insult.
as to the [quote]Imaginary lines on a map that do not in any way take in consideration the people who live there[/quote] the lines are certainly not imaginary, they are very real.
maybe you meant "artificial"? or "arbitrary"? "man-made"?
you see, language is very important... words have meanings precisely so that we can communicate clearly. when we are emotional, we tend to misuse words and become confused.
