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The concept of it being a socialist plot is a relatively recent phenomenon. The U.S. was the first to provide tax-paid public education through high school, and it was designed to produce an educated society that would be actively involved in governing itself and a skilled work force for the private sector to draw upon. It was considered quite radical by other countries, until they saw the egalitarian meritocracy it produced in the 19th century begin outstripping other economies. Then various states began introducing the concept of publicly funded state colleges to make their residents even more competitive and attract major employers. It was a major thrust of post-war California that fueled its growth into the 6th largest economy in the world (if we could shed the other 49 states). When I went to the University of California there was no tuition; only $50/semester "incidental" fees. The concept got derailed during the backlash against the student protests of the 1960s. Conservatives began cutting public education budgets everywhere, but particularly at the college level. Even 2 year junior colleges which were designed primarily to provide free vocational training and free academic basics for those transferring on to four year colleges saw their budgets slashed. All colleges had to begin hiking fees, recruiting foreign and out of state students to collect higher tuitions, at the same time as other developed economies moved to providing publicly funded college to their citizens. Putting us at an economic disadvantage, impacting immigration visa competitions, and creating the whole Federal student loan farce that is now in crisis condition. So the solution, it seems, is to call free education a socialist plot rather than recognizing that it started out as a capitalistic investment to create a more competitive and skilled workforce. Got killed in retaliation to all those socialist students. So the mess we have today is because of the socialists and the proposed solution of going back to free upper education is a socialist plot.
Diotrephes · 70-79, M
@dancingtongue Resistance to education is a backlash against school integration. Some people would rather sink the whole system than allow Black students to benefit. You see it happening today in the court cases whining about how admitting Black students discriminates against Asian students.
That whine seems to have gotten more traction than the usual one where White students were whining about how a Black student got admitted to the university instead of them.
The deal is that by admitting countless foreign students there are far fewer seats for American students, of whatever race. That hurts the country and is an attack upon its citizens.
That whine seems to have gotten more traction than the usual one where White students were whining about how a Black student got admitted to the university instead of them.
The deal is that by admitting countless foreign students there are far fewer seats for American students, of whatever race. That hurts the country and is an attack upon its citizens.
Doomflower · 36-40, M
@dancingtongue this was excellently written
dancingtongue · 80-89, M
@Diotrephes [quote]Resistance to education is a backlash against school integration.[/quote]
That was/is happening as well, and certainly played/plays a role as well. But the major funding cuts to the funding of the Cal State College system as well as the UC system initiated on Governor Reagan's watch were purely political: the tear gas didn't get them to submit, so stop feeding the beast -- to borrow a favorite slogan of the taxpayer revolution.
That was/is happening as well, and certainly played/plays a role as well. But the major funding cuts to the funding of the Cal State College system as well as the UC system initiated on Governor Reagan's watch were purely political: the tear gas didn't get them to submit, so stop feeding the beast -- to borrow a favorite slogan of the taxpayer revolution.
Diotrephes · 70-79, M
That question seems more appropriate for the Jim Crow era that it does in 2022.
But, like all social issues, it is complex and doesn't have a simple answer. For one thing, if everyone was highly educated who would be willing to do the grunt work of being a garbage collector or a farm worker or a janitor?
On the other hand, the country is in competition with everyone else on the planet so if they become more educated and advanced then the country most, if not all, of its people fall to the bottom of the heap.
IMO, it is best to have a system where each person is freely able to develop to the highest level possible. That strengthens society as a whole and will help the home team reach and maintain the highest level possible.
But don't forget that the most important people are the ones who do the crappy jobs. A good reliable garbage collector is far more essential than a highly educated philosopher is.
But, like all social issues, it is complex and doesn't have a simple answer. For one thing, if everyone was highly educated who would be willing to do the grunt work of being a garbage collector or a farm worker or a janitor?
On the other hand, the country is in competition with everyone else on the planet so if they become more educated and advanced then the country most, if not all, of its people fall to the bottom of the heap.
IMO, it is best to have a system where each person is freely able to develop to the highest level possible. That strengthens society as a whole and will help the home team reach and maintain the highest level possible.
But don't forget that the most important people are the ones who do the crappy jobs. A good reliable garbage collector is far more essential than a highly educated philosopher is.
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@Diotrephes Your commentary drags in a lot. And up close and personal its very complex individual question. But give it some distance and its simple. cultures that restrict the potential of the people for any reason fall behind over time and fail. It doesnt matter if its a nation that denies education to women. Or discriminates officially or unofficially on skin colour or religion. Or forces people to pay outrageous sums for education. Nations need a pool of the best educated people as professionals and administators to push the nations interests in the world. If this doesnt happen the nation has to import and pay for skills (like the Arabs) or the pool of the best dries up slowly. (Look at the quality of people running for public office in some countries) So those nations who invest in their own future by investing in educating anyone who wants to contribute will always win out. Either by becoming a stronger nation directly, or selling their skills overseas to bring income into the country.😷
ElwoodBlues · M
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sunsporter1649 · 70-79, M
@ElwoodBlues Bothers you that much! Excellent!
ElwoodBlues · M
@sunsporter1649 Well c'mon dude! Where's the comic then? Please post the comic that shows how my physics education was part of a "propaganda machine," [b]LOL!!![/b]
sunsporter1649 · 70-79, M
@ElwoodBlues Most excellent, really gets under your thin skin
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
On right-wing Youtube, there is a huge emphasis on slating university students and the social sciences. Jordan Peterson (seen as an intellectual by the right) has done a lot to hype up conspiracy theories that were previously only credible on the far fringes.
Post-modernism and marxism and are interchangeable terms in this narrative in which post-soviet transgender girlie-men are corrupting the youth and destroying society from within. Dividing people with identity politics and destroying 'our' history with critical race theory etc etc.
Almost none of this actually engages with what social science academics actually say. In fact; it relies on deliberate misunderstandings, safe in the knowledge that none of the target audience for this garbage narrative is going to ever read the source material or fact-check the youtube videos they watch.
It's effective because it ties something ascendent they don't like (social liberalism and equal opportunities) with something radical they don't like (leftist academics) and does so in a simplified way that bypasses any arguments actually made by anyone. "I'm not racist, I'm just against 'critical race theory" etc.
Obviously, it also relies on massively exaggerating the power and influence of social science academia and also its radicalism.
Post-modernism and marxism and are interchangeable terms in this narrative in which post-soviet transgender girlie-men are corrupting the youth and destroying society from within. Dividing people with identity politics and destroying 'our' history with critical race theory etc etc.
Almost none of this actually engages with what social science academics actually say. In fact; it relies on deliberate misunderstandings, safe in the knowledge that none of the target audience for this garbage narrative is going to ever read the source material or fact-check the youtube videos they watch.
It's effective because it ties something ascendent they don't like (social liberalism and equal opportunities) with something radical they don't like (leftist academics) and does so in a simplified way that bypasses any arguments actually made by anyone. "I'm not racist, I'm just against 'critical race theory" etc.
Obviously, it also relies on massively exaggerating the power and influence of social science academia and also its radicalism.
LeopoldBloom · M
bijouxbroussard · F
@LeopoldBloom True. It only makes sense to right-wingers if one can educate fetuses in utero.
sunsporter1649 · 70-79, M
sunsporter1649 · 70-79, M
@spjennifer While you sit in your mommy's basement watching little red lying hood on pmsnbc doing her daily propaganda bullschiff
spjennifer · 56-60, T
@sunsporter1649 My "Mommy" died a long while ago and I never lived in her "basement", In fact I left home when I was 16 and never looked back. You mean you didn't have some Branco cartoon that could speak for you? You just keep on making yourself look more and more foolish ole sundowner 🦆🤪
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whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@Graylight While I agree with you on principle, being from the field, I still believe a nation needs more engineers nurses and dentists than philosphers and egyptologists. So if you want to invest in your own education, fine. But if you want the government to fund it, then its reasonable to expect the government to want something useful (in the immediate term) back.😷
Graylight · 51-55, F
@whowasthatmaskedman The problem is, who decides what's useful? The curator of the Smithsonian? Wall Street? The Mayo Clinic?
It's an old problem with no great answers. I absolutely think a nation has to be run by those trained to run it, but why run it at all if there's nothing inspiring to live for? 🤷♀️
It's an old problem with no great answers. I absolutely think a nation has to be run by those trained to run it, but why run it at all if there's nothing inspiring to live for? 🤷♀️
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@Graylight Broadly we agree. But there are some rather esoteric fields out there that are of dubious value.. As you say, who draws the line?😷
Adstar · 56-60, M
@CorvusBlackthorne And hopefully you know what i mean.. No education is free..
Adstar · 56-60, M
@CorvusBlackthorne If it is too expensive don't go to colledge.. Simple solution..
WhateverWorks · 36-40
Where I live in order for free education to matter people would have to get back to actually valuing their education period 🤷🏻♀️
It be nice to see it become affordable again though rather than an exorbitant debt.
It be nice to see it become affordable again though rather than an exorbitant debt.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
Apparently at the point determined based on the economic realities of 1918 America. Totally relevant today. 😆
Carissimi · 70-79, F
There is no free education. You pay taxes for it.
redredred · M
Where I live it’s at age 18.
@redredred Do you agree with that idea? Do you feel that is the magickal age at which free education should cease?
checkoutanytime · M
This I do agree with you.
[youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bc0KhhjJP98]
[youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bc0KhhjJP98]
dancingtongue · 80-89, M
Thanks for bc
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