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Rasengan101 · 31-35, M
Ozuye502 · 36-40, M
See this is the exact reason why I say the political far left has zero moral standing for abortion they will chant and scream my body my choice but vaccines it’s your body our choice. Make up your mind! I may or may not get it but as an individual who chooses liberty it’s your choice if you do or don’t. Sorry I side with liberty as we all should!
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No, no one should be forced to undergo any medical procedure if they are mentally competent. In the US at least, performing any medical procedure against the wishes of a mentally competent patient can be considered assault and punished criminally, even if said treatment is in the best interest of the patient, and even if refusing it will cause death. A person always has final say in what happens to their body.
That being said, an employer can mandate vaccination as a condition of employment in the US. If you don't get it, they can legally fire you.
A government can also mandate vaccination if they deem it's in the best interest of the public. I believe that NYC did so many years ago during a cholera outbreak (not exactly sure of the details there.). But in doing so, they risk the population pushing back, either by loosing re-elections, or outright riots.
I regularly get vaccines for flu, and tetanus, etc. The COVID vaccines concern me for 2 reasons, and maybe they will turn out to be nothing. First, this is an mRNA vaccine, which is completely new technology being used on humans. (mRNA has been used in various animal vaccines I think.) No one has been able to tell me how long the mRNA remains active within a cell, which cells pick up the mRNA, and whether or not your immune system eventually kills these cells that are producing the antigen protein. If a few muscle / fat cells pick this up, make some antigens, and then stop / die, that sounds great. If the mRNA migrates to cardiac / liver cells and keeps making antigen for years, probably not so great.
Second, for corona type viruses (like COVID), many trial vaccines to date have had a very nasty side effect of making subsequent infections worse, not better, called “antibody-dependent enhancement”. So far this has not been seen, but in the FDA documentation for emergency approval, they state that not enough data exists to determine if this will be a long term issue or not.
That being said, an employer can mandate vaccination as a condition of employment in the US. If you don't get it, they can legally fire you.
A government can also mandate vaccination if they deem it's in the best interest of the public. I believe that NYC did so many years ago during a cholera outbreak (not exactly sure of the details there.). But in doing so, they risk the population pushing back, either by loosing re-elections, or outright riots.
I regularly get vaccines for flu, and tetanus, etc. The COVID vaccines concern me for 2 reasons, and maybe they will turn out to be nothing. First, this is an mRNA vaccine, which is completely new technology being used on humans. (mRNA has been used in various animal vaccines I think.) No one has been able to tell me how long the mRNA remains active within a cell, which cells pick up the mRNA, and whether or not your immune system eventually kills these cells that are producing the antigen protein. If a few muscle / fat cells pick this up, make some antigens, and then stop / die, that sounds great. If the mRNA migrates to cardiac / liver cells and keeps making antigen for years, probably not so great.
Second, for corona type viruses (like COVID), many trial vaccines to date have had a very nasty side effect of making subsequent infections worse, not better, called “antibody-dependent enhancement”. So far this has not been seen, but in the FDA documentation for emergency approval, they state that not enough data exists to determine if this will be a long term issue or not.
QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M
Elessar · 26-30, M
@QuixoticSoul I think it'll reasonably become mandatory eventually, it's just that atm there aren't sufficient doses for everyone. Even because it would be crazy crippling our economies for even longer, for the sake of novaxxers' "freedom"
@QuixoticSoul are you not the covidians who wear face masks and refuse to see anyone? Are you not the antisocial ones?
QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M
@similarexperience Nah, with the pandemic on, mingling and not wearing masks is anti-social behavior - as in, something that harms society at large.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-social_behaviour
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-social_behaviour
KiwiBird · 36-40, F
ozgirl512 · 26-30, F
There's a basic compact to living in a society... You agree to follow the rules and society agrees to bestow upon you the benefits of that society.
If you don't want to follow the rules then you should remove yourself from that society.
Fur those with genuine medical conditions, it's different. For those with a political reason not to vaccinate, get the fuck out and to live somewhere else.... Oh, and your Darwin award will be sent to you!
If you don't want to follow the rules then you should remove yourself from that society.
Fur those with genuine medical conditions, it's different. For those with a political reason not to vaccinate, get the fuck out and to live somewhere else.... Oh, and your Darwin award will be sent to you!
helenS · 36-40, F
@MrBrownstone Thank you. I think I should leave this thread. Have a nice day.
MrBrownstone · 46-50, M
@helenS Price you pay for butting into a conversation. Hopefully you learned something
@ozgirl512 I'd love to remove myself from an evil society that forces medicines and vaccines on people but our politicians have locked us up and banned international travel. Society here is utterly degenerate and won't last long the rate it is going. Evil is never satisfied.
cherokeepatti · 61-69, F
No and I won’t. There was a doctor who died recently. He was very much pro-vaccination and he took the Covid vaccine. It apparently wiped out his immune system and he suffered for 2 weeks in the hospital before he died. The HIV virus is supposedly deactivated & used to make this vaccine but who knows what type of Pandora’s box it is creating in humans who take it. Could be immediate or could be a ticking time bomb.
UnderLockDown · M
@cherokeepatti For something that doesn't keep you from contracting, or spreading, Cootie-19.
I've already had it, I have no need for a shot.
I've already had it, I have no need for a shot.
cherokeepatti · 61-69, F
@UnderLockDown I believe I had it a year ago as well. I am doing multiple things to keep my inflammation down and to strengthen my immune system. That’s the way I like to stay healthy.
@cherokeepatti From what I read, a potential vaccine made in Australia triggered false positives in folks who got tested for HIV, and trials were stopped after that was discovered. I haven't seen anything other than that regarding HIV.
AbbySvenz · F
Fine, then they should have to pay for their treatment up front.
AbbySvenz · F
I was answering a question that another member asked. I wasn’t setting policy @similarexperience
Elessar · 26-30, M
@similarexperience 1% with non-overwhelmed hospitals (= with all the moderate, severe and critical patients receiving care, and in useful time), and with containment measures in place. Go check what was the percentage in Bergamo last year.
@Snowvixen they already know a fair amount about the corona group of viruses, so they weren't exactly starting from scratch with this vaccine. Sure it was rushed a bit, but they also had less ground to cover to get go the finish line than they would have if this was something completely unknown.
@SooperSarah The group as separate viruses sure, but you do not necessarily KNOW about the viruses combined. Its a dangerous and not something to be rushed.
BlueVeins · 22-25
PrivateHell · M
SW-User
if you refuse to take the vaccine at the moment, then you should be quarantining at all times. i don’t think anyone should be forced to take the vaccine at this point of time. maybe a little later in the future but right now, i can understand why some people are worried. but if you flat out refuse to take it because you don’t think covid is real or you’re just anti-vaxx in general, you can hurt someone therefore some places should require it in the future.
SW-User
@SooperSarah my friend had covid and she told me that, that it only lasts for about four months? idk if that’s still true bc this was months ago and maybe more research has been done. if anything, i’d consult w a doctor to know
Elessar · 26-30, M
@SooperSarah If it's ruled out that antibodies acquired by natural exposure confer the same level and duration of immunity as the ones acquired from vaccination, yeah, better save the vaxx for those who don't.
@SW-User the producers of the vaccine say it might provide a couple years of protection.
I don't know how your friend knows how long natural immunity lasts when the scientific community is still trying to figure that out. I doubt asking gp dr will even do any good since they're treating the symptoms and not studying the virus.
I don't know how your friend knows how long natural immunity lasts when the scientific community is still trying to figure that out. I doubt asking gp dr will even do any good since they're treating the symptoms and not studying the virus.
MrBrownstone · 46-50, M
AbbeyRhode · F
NoGamesTolerated · F
@cherokeepatti It’s coming.
AbbeyRhode · F
@cherokeepatti You have no idea how badly I want to believe it won't happen, but it's not looking good. 😞
NoGamesTolerated · F
MARTAisback · 22-25, F
@Amyrakunejo our main responsibilities are to ourselves? That’s fine, I don’t disagree. But of course ‘main’ is a very different thing from ‘all’ and clearly we do have responsibilities to others (unless perhaps we live completely isolated and totally off grid). As I said, free will is fine and has it‘ s place but you have to consider others too. I’m sorry your needs are currently unmet but I’m sure you can appreciate there are billions of people right now who could say the same , it’s really not all about you.
Ozuye502 · 36-40, M
@TopOfTheWorld if you are living by the nonaggression principle you understand that 1 any and all acts of reckless behavior can and most likely will involve someone using force against me and 2 I can only use force in response to reckless behavior or unjust force. Keeping yourself happy and sustained and productive you are covering the idea of being responsible to others. And being that the post is about forcing people to get the Covid vaccine I’m trying to stay on topic here.
@Ozuye502 ok so you do agree we have to take some responsibility for how our actions affect others, thank you. And we also agree that nobody should be forced to take the vaccine, so that’s good.
NoGamesTolerated · F
Amyrakunejo · F
Sweetpoison · 36-40, F
UnderLockDown · M
NoGamesTolerated · F
MARTAisback · 22-25, F
SW-User
No, that is too far. They should be penalised for refusing to support the most important social obligation since the Second World War though. Perhaps denial of medical treatment, perhaps the removal of their passports, the denial of certain rights and services, etc. If you don't support the greater needs of society in times of real hardship then society shouldn't go very far to support you.
MARTAisback · 22-25, F
deadgerbil · 22-25
ninalanyon · 61-69, T
No. It would simply be a distraction from getting the rest us vaccinated. So long as those who refuse are a small proportion of the population it won't matter much. Let's concentrate on the big things and worry about the second order stuff when we have actually got enough vaccine to give to everyone who actually wants it.
MarineBob · 56-60, M
@ninalanyon they can't even get the the real doctors behind them
Elessar · 26-30, M
@PepsiColaP In fact that's not enforcement. One can still decide not to take it, and stick with masks and distancing until the pandemic will be declared resolved.
@Elessar it is however. Public spaces shouldn't be regulated by the government . What individual businesses do is a different story
Elessar · 26-30, M
@PepsiColaP They are, however; it is exactly the responsibility of the government to regulate public places/stuff, and it's the reason why masking and social distancing are *already* mandatory. Lifting the mandate for those who can exhibit PoV, to be released only after the biological time required to build up immunity, is how you ethically convince (most) people to get immunized, while leaving the most stubborn in the exact same situation they're now (if they think a vaxx is worse than this, it's ultimately their choice).
The alternatives would be worse:
1. [i]Everyone, even vaxxed people, keep wearing masks and social distancing[/i]: not only it makes no point from a scientific point of view, but it also prevents many businesses from operating at full capacity, extending the economic damage unnecessarily.
2. [i]Containment measures are lifted up for everyone[/i]: This would also be unethical, would inevitably lead to further shutdowns, and would put at an unnecessary and otherwise avoidable anyone who, for a reason or another, couldn't get immunized through vaccination (immunodeficient people, pregnant women, children younger than 16, categories that are still awaiting to be called, etc.)
The alternatives would be worse:
1. [i]Everyone, even vaxxed people, keep wearing masks and social distancing[/i]: not only it makes no point from a scientific point of view, but it also prevents many businesses from operating at full capacity, extending the economic damage unnecessarily.
2. [i]Containment measures are lifted up for everyone[/i]: This would also be unethical, would inevitably lead to further shutdowns, and would put at an unnecessary and otherwise avoidable anyone who, for a reason or another, couldn't get immunized through vaccination (immunodeficient people, pregnant women, children younger than 16, categories that are still awaiting to be called, etc.)
MoonlightLullaby · 41-45, F
latinbutterfly · F
tindrummer · M
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LaylaTheTallGirl · 18-21, F
@LaylaTheTallGirl do you trust Covid?
LaylaTheTallGirl · 18-21, F
@TopOfTheWorld what do you mean?
@LaylaTheTallGirl you said you don’t trust them. By “them” I thought you meant the vaccines but I’m wondering if I got that wrong?
MarmeeMarch · M
OogieBoogie · F
WanderingThrough · 31-35, F
No, I don’t think so. It’s still possible to transmit the virus after vaccination, so you’re only putting yourself (and other unvaccinated people) at risk by not getting it. I think that the number of people who don’t receive the vaccine will be so low, it won’t really matter. The majority of the population will get it.
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