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Do you support Universal Income?

[b]Hawaii is considering introducing a basic income for all its citizens.
[/b]
The US state’s congress voted to look into the idea as research suggests a large number of current jobs are likely to be replaced by automated technology in the coming years.

State representative Chris Lee, who introduced the legislation, said: "Our economy is changing far more rapidly than anybody's expected.”

He added that it was important "to be sure that everybody will benefit from the technological revolution that we're seeing to make sure no one's left behind."

The bill declares that all families in Hawaii are entitled to “basic financial security” – paving the way for a policy that would guarantee this.

It also tasks several government offices with analysing the state’s economy and finding “ways to ensure all families have basic financial security, including an evaluation of different forms of a full or partial universal basic income."

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Burnley123 · 41-45, M

Yes and no. The 'no' is not for the reasons people typically think. The book 'Utopia for Realists' is very good on this.

Firstly, as the book above shows, all the case studies show that UBI does [b]not [/b]make people lazy. You got some cases of parents spending more time with kids and people spending more time in education (no bad things) Though no reduction in productivity. On this level, it is a good idea and the points you raise about automation mean that something will have to change.

I do however have the following concern, related to economic power:

1) UBI in an automation society would mean a society stratified into productive and unproductive camps, with the former paying for the later. All people being citizens with equal rights is something which I agree with though questions need to be asked whether this is sustainable when you have such a clear difference in economic bargaining power. Western democracy itself came off the back of the industrial working class, who society needed, organising and agitating for a bigger slice of the pie. To appease them; the elite needed to pay them more, improve working conditions and indeed expand the democratic franchise.

If people reliant on UBI feel persecuted by the ruling class, then nobody is going to care if they go on strike. You can't down tools if you are not needed to make anything.

A better solution would be to have an economy structured around full employment but with reduced hours. I think that would be better for society and would also be more politically sustainable. However, I am not completely against UBI per say.

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Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@sogdianrock [quote]I am sure The Rich will have no problem spending increased wealth.[/quote] Absolutely. During automation, servicing the rich will be one of the few viable economies left.

[quote]At some point a revolution must happen but of course a democratic one. Universal income is the least that must be done.[/quote]

Yes, and you do know my politics lol. I am [i]not [/i]against UBI on principle and something must change. In fact, the whole structure of the economy must if we are to escape some kind of dystopia.

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Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Greenbare [quote]When all the working class is given Universal Basic Income then the rich won't be able to hire good people to produce goods and services they want to spend on.[/quote]

No but they will have robots.

[quote]Communism has always created HUGE shortages and famines when people find out they don't have to work and can't profit by work.[/quote]

I am not a communist but this is not true of communism. UBI is not communism and this is also not true of UBI.

Cierzo · M

I don't support it, but I would like to discuss it economically rather than ideologically
Where will the money to fund it come from? Or which other expenses will be cut?

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Cierzo · M

@QuixoticSoul That reeducation would be nice anyway, but it would take time. I don't think big corporations would like to delay automation.

I could agree with automation if for every job taken by a robot, businesses would pay a tax equal to the salary of the redundant worker, and that money is distributed by the government among all of them.

That way it would not be profitable for business to use robots only to replace workers and lower costs, only to produce new goods and services, or add value on those already produced.

Brianthesnail · 56-60, M

@Cierzo "I could agree with automation if for every job taken by a robot, businesses would pay a tax equal to the salary of the redundant worker, and that money is distributed by the government among all of them."

That way of thinking is way more communist than UBI. 😁

Cierzo · M

@Brianthesnail Maybe 😉. It is a label anyway.

This way state would be an intermediary between corporations and redundant workers, rather than a provider for the whole population.

Socialclutz · 36-40, M

Terrible idea, Hawaii is so out of touch with reality it's laughable. I'd propose we not make technology automation the fore front of our research so ppl can work and be independent. When we make automation do the job some thing will happen and the system will fail. If we get so dependent on the automation and it fails how will anyone be able to fix it. We are on dangerous territory doing this.

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sogdianrock · 61-69, M

hi QuixoticSoul
It is the same problem as climate change denial imho. I am also interested in the psychology of technological/ social change denial. The alternative to Universal Credit is revolution and there are a lot of guns in The US.
Best wishes
:)

Socialclutz · 36-40, M

I'm sorry, I don't understand, did you say further technicolochal advancement in the form automation where ppl lose their jobs is a good thing to allow the population to flourish? 7.5 billion humans on this world and the human population isn't "flourishing". You like every one else who wants this automation technology truly do just want power, and/or handouts from the government. Just remember anything the government gives it can and will take away. I will never accept this bullshit

QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M

@Socialclutz Technology advancement is a thing. It's not necessarily good or bad. It just is. You can't put the genie back in the bottle, and ultimately efficiency is its own good. Nobody wants to go back to weaving stuff by hand, after all.

But these kinds of transitions can be dangerous if not managed correctly.

QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M

It's an interesting idea. I'd be curious to see what happens when they do a study. I know a lot of people are going to focus on people "deserving" money or not. But I'm more results oriented with this stuff. Broke and poor people cannot afford my products.

sogdianrock · 61-69, M

hi QuixoticSoul
Richard Branson supports Universal Income iff the helps.
Sure it is an inevitable response to robotisation. People will catch up when Robot lorries start driving around.
best wishes
:)

OggggO · 36-40, M

I wonder how many of the people who oppose this also thought Thomas Paine was just this side of a prophet back when Glenn Beck was co-opting his [i]Common Sense[/i] paper to sell his books.

sogdianrock · 61-69, M

hi OggggO
Good parallel! Similar times!
Best wishes
:)

OggggO · 36-40, M

@sogdianrock Actually, I was referring to the fact that Thomas Paine supported a universal basic income, yet somehow got picked up as a hero by the right-wing "freedom means fuck you" crowd.

sogdianrock · 61-69, M

hi OggggO
I know more about Paine than US Alt right politics for sure. Thanks
Best wishes
:)

DonaldTrumpet · 70-79, M

Hi Sogdianrock
I DoNTS SUppOSRTS aNYTHInG UnIVERSaL uNlESS iTS a UniVERsALZ WaLLS
Best wishes
:)

sogdianrock · 61-69, M

hi DonaldTrumpet ·
haha that the wall The Robots will build?
Best wishes
:)

DonaldTrumpet · 70-79, M

@sogdianrock Hi SDR
MexiCAns WiLLS BuIlds AND Pays
best WiaheS
:)

sogdianrock · 61-69, M

hi DonaldTrumpet ·
haha sure in your dreams
Best wishes
:)

Xuan12 · 31-35, M

This is going to be such a thorny political issue, but basically yeah. The advance of technology and the structure of capitalism are supposed to improve people's lives. But if eliminate all the jobs with automation, then leave the displaced workers behind, what do we end up with? A better society? Nope. Something needs to give.

sogdianrock · 61-69, M

hi Xuan12 ·
of course it is not a debate even. People do not know what is coming in terms of automation.
Best wishes
:)

QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M

@Xuan12 Not only that, but suddenly you devastate the consumer class. The engine of capitalism is regular people spending money. If they have nothing to spend... there is no room for entrepreneurship, service industries, etc. Everything collapses.

sogdianrock · 61-69, M

hi QuixoticSoul
Poltical revelations follow economic changes like this.
Best wishes
:)

SW-User

Indeed -- Hawaiians need less incentive to work.

sogdianrock · 61-69, M

hi LouisXIV
work ethic is a problem having gone to such efforts to construct a society around it when you now need a life ethic. Still shoulder to the wheel, crack the whip!
Best wishes
:)

MarineBob · 56-60, M

bull shit, ive been poor , homeless and if you put your mind to it you can overcome anything, so whay if you need two jobs or have to do odd jobs it builds character

QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M

@MarineBob You're really not grasping the scope of the problem. It's not a situation a little work ethic can overcome.

You being able to find odd jobs, or two jobs - requires a mostly-employed population of people with wealth to spare and a healthy economy with a functioning consumer-spending driven engine. That's the part that's looking like it will be going away.

We're not talking about manufacturing anymore. We're talking about fast food, customer service, policing, military, medical, legal, etc. Knowledge professions are also at risk. AI diagnoses cancer with higher accuracy than human doctors. Corporations are replacing their legal departments with AI. This is stuff that's already happening.

And of course, all those companies that make a rational cost-effective choice of using automation in lieu of human labor... they don't have a reason to exist when people can't afford to buy their services either. It's a cascading effect.

We can't have a nation of people be homeless and scheming to find odd jobs, that scenario just doesn't work when you universalize it. For money to change hands - it needs to be out there, being spent.

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QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M

@Greenbare This is plain not communism, I'm not sure how that's not obvious. Words have meanings.

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QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M

@Greenbare I have no idea what liberals have to do with anything here. You don't have to tell me about how communism is a disaster - unlike you I actually lived that disaster and have no urge to return. But this just plain isn't communism,
It's missing all of the fundamental aspects of the system.

Let's try the reverse. How is this communism? Explain, please.

cherokeepatti · 61-69, F

geez

sogdianrock · 61-69, M

hi cherokeepatti
bless you
Best wishes
:)

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