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Can I get the definition for "woman" please?

馃ぃ馃ぃ馃ぃ
spot on for the people who.. well you know who they are
[media=https://youtu.be/5mnQTzhVgl8]
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TinyViolins31-35, M
I know this is the new anti-woke "gotcha" question, but you have to understand that there are multiple ways you can answer a question a like that.

I mean you can analyze it through the psychological/behavioral route by saying women are feminine and express that femininity in ways like wearing dresses and makeup and being nurturing and submissive. But obviously there are women that reject femininity so having such a limited definition will be somewhat exclusive.

You can also go the philosophical/social route by saying women are the ones who give birth to children, that stay at home, that cook meals, that clean the house. But again, a definition like this pretty narrow and bound by culture.

You can look at it from a legal perspective and say that a girl is not a woman until she turns 18. Or maybe you want to judge it by some level of experience or mental maturity, like saying a girl doesn't become a woman until she can fend for herself without parental help. Like in the animal kingdom, we typically say that a child doesn't become an adult until they reach reproductive capabilities or until they leave the pack, we can argue that boys don't become men or girls don't become women until they meet certain requirements.

But we all know this is meant to be a jab at trans people, so let's get down to the biological route. Do we keep it simple and say that women are small and weak, men are big and strong? Isn't that what the whole trans people in sports debate is all about anyway? We gotta protect the small and weak, right? Then again, lots of sports have weight classes for the same reason. Some people are always going to be bigger and stronger than others.

We could keep it anatomical and say that women have breasts and hips, men have beards and muscles, so people can take one look at a person and know right away whether they're a man or a woman. Except that there are many unfortunate cases of women having facial fair and men having moobs, and many more examples of men and women not having any of the physical characteristics they should.

So do we go for something even more fundamental than that, like one specific biological trait? Sex chromosomes are all the rage, but what about sex hormones like testosterone or estrogen? These are the parts of us that are responsible for so many of the other traits like the ones I listed above. You don't grow up to have a male-bodied or female-bodied person without these parts of us doing the work they're supposed to. Without normal chromosomal or hormonal activity, your fetus would never develop properly and you'd be born intersex.

The problem with intersex people is that they're not exactly a 50/50 mix of male and female traits, they're usually mostly typically male or mostly typically female. It would be hard to categorize it based on appearances alone since they may look, act, and sound like you would expect from a woman, yet they're chromosomally male.

I know this is a lot of words for something that doesn't even answer the question, but you do have to understand that to define something is to limit it. Human biology, and behavior, is pretty complex, which is why this is even a question. There are number of different ways you could approach such a definition.

Think of it this way, if it was easy to determine what made a man and what made a woman, why does it seem so hard for men and women to understand each other?
SW-User
@TinyViolins you really are twat, aren't you?
TinyViolins31-35, M
@SW-User Depends on who you ask
Torsten36-40, M
@TinyViolins An Adult human female is all you needed to write
SW-User
@Torsten I love how he's so "woke" yet thinks the reality that women are physically weaker than men is some kind of insult and is using it to try and goad biological women

Somebody has really watched too many marvel cartoons 馃ぃ
TinyViolins31-35, M
@Torsten That's just a circular definition. It's leaving out what makes an adult and what makes a female. It might seem obvious to you, but different cultures define adulthood differently. Is being an adult a legal matter, a social matter, or a biological matter? What specific qualities separate a female from a male? And how would a stranger know whether or not the other person possessed those traits?

That's like if I asked you what shape a bell pepper was, and you said it was the shape of a bell. It's not really answering the question, it's just assuming everybody knows what bell you're talking about. Is it a doorbell, a bike bell, a call bell? You're going to have to provide more information.

@SW-User It's kind of amazing how you can have so many assumptions about a person and have all of them be wrong. There's a popular saying about people who assume, and it certainly rings true with you. I guess you're really trying to live up to your username, huh?
SW-User
@TinyViolins you're a piece of shit with a mouth
TinyViolins31-35, M
@SW-User You're too old to be this useless in a discussion. Nowhere in any of your comments did you come close to making a point. All you did was come out of the blue to insult a person you've never talked to and that never did anything to you.

Does it make you feel less pathetic to insult strangers on the internet? If so, leave me out of it. I'd rather discuss ideas than trade schoolyard insults with a middle-aged keyboard warrior
SW-User
@TinyViolins oh ageism. Aren't you clever. So intellectually advanced. Almost as precious as your patronisation of women because they're demonstrably physically weaker than men and thus, in your eyes, somehow contemptable.

Here is some applause 馃憦 to add to your own self congratulation. I hope there is room in your head.
TinyViolins31-35, M
@SW-User You're in absolutely no position to determine how I see things. You and I have never had a discussion. What you're doing is called projection, and you can fool yourself with it, but don't expect me to buy that BS. I didn't say anything disparaging women,.

But I've got better things to do than coddle your ego. If you want to waste your time arguing against the strawmen you create, have at it. As far as I can see, you've got nothing to contribute but vitriol. Have a nice life.
SW-User
@TinyViolins yeah keep telling yourself you're not a mysogynistic pig:
"women are small and weak, men are big and strong? Isn't that what the whole trans people in sports debate is all about anyway? We gotta protect the small and weak, right?"
TinyViolins31-35, M
@SW-User Wow, and I thought you were clueless before. Way to take things out of context. You deliberately left out the second part of that paragraph.

No matter, I'll drop it here again so that no one else makes the same mistake you did
[quote]Then again, lots of sports have weight classes for the same reason. Some people are always going to be bigger and stronger than others.[/quote]
SW-User
@TinyViolins I watched a documentary the other day where they identified a 200,000 year old tooth and jaw fragment as female. Do you realise how out of your depth you are?

Let's say we equalise weight. Take a good look at the picture I posted. A really, really good look. Do you notice anything about centre of gravity and the fact it differs between males and females?!?

You can bring up cases of biological failure all you want but that doesn't blur the lines between male or female

In fact it does the opposite. It shows how a small deviation from nature's template can have a massive psychical and psychological impact.
TinyViolins31-35, M
@SW-User What is the line between male and female? The OP is asking for a definition and all I'm saying is that there can be many. Not all of us are gifted in analyzing jaw fragments or someone's center of gravity. As if those are the only things that separate male and female

My closing point was that human biology is complex, and your closing point here seems to reach the same conclusion. Trying to come up with a concise definition of a woman is hard because, as you said, small deviations have massive physical and psychological impacts. What if someone is physically female but psychologically male due to a deviation like this? How would they be defined?
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TinyViolins31-35, M
@SW-User I agree that males and females are biologically distinct. I don't know if anyone is seriously trying to make the argument that they're not. But I can't say that the differences are so unmistakable that anybody can easily define it.

I've had a coworker that had a slightly deeper voice and broader shoulders compared to other women, and she would tell me that other people would mistake her for trans despite being completely female.

I've seen videos of women getting harassed at public bathrooms because they had short hair and dressed tomboyish. People assumed they were men and tried to kick them out based on appearances.

I also had a friend that had gamine features and dressed somewhat androgynous, and would get called slurs for homosexual men because that's what they thought she was. Again, people mistook a woman for a man because of their arbitrary definitions for what a woman is supposed to be.

Trans people in sports is not a debate I particularly care for since sports are not something I consider all that important, but the athletic differences between men and women have been well established. If they decided to ban all trans athletes tomorrow, I wouldn't blink an eye.