ArishMell · 70-79, M
"Strange" in what respect?
If you read a novel written over a hundred years ago its style will be different from novels written now, so can be hard to follow. Readers in the 19C would have said the same about novels written in the 18C.
What may help you is making notes as you go along.
Write down in a notebook the name of each character as you first meet them, their relationship to others (spouse, sister, parent, employer or employee etc.).
Then each important incident, in just a few words ("Mary met John - fell in love", or "Sam now employed by Smith & Sons".)
Most words in English mean the same now as they did two hundred years ago. A few words have changed their meanings, and realistic dialogue will show slang and colloquial language of its time.
The real changes are in the style: the way sentences are put together, so you need break them down to see their key words. Something like this....
Nineteenth-Century writers loved to be prolix, creating very long sentences that may be hard to follow even though their messages are quite straightforwards upon close examination.
Or, the same message in modern, lighter style:
Nineteenth-Century writers loved long sentences that look difficult but say simple things.
.
I hope this helps!
If you read a novel written over a hundred years ago its style will be different from novels written now, so can be hard to follow. Readers in the 19C would have said the same about novels written in the 18C.
What may help you is making notes as you go along.
Write down in a notebook the name of each character as you first meet them, their relationship to others (spouse, sister, parent, employer or employee etc.).
Then each important incident, in just a few words ("Mary met John - fell in love", or "Sam now employed by Smith & Sons".)
Most words in English mean the same now as they did two hundred years ago. A few words have changed their meanings, and realistic dialogue will show slang and colloquial language of its time.
The real changes are in the style: the way sentences are put together, so you need break them down to see their key words. Something like this....
Nineteenth-Century writers loved to be prolix, creating very long sentences that may be hard to follow even though their messages are quite straightforwards upon close examination.
Or, the same message in modern, lighter style:
Nineteenth-Century writers loved long sentences that look difficult but say simple things.
.
I hope this helps!
peterlee · M
@ArishMell ‘Gay’ has changed its meaning dramatically in my lifetime. Once happy and vivacious, and even a common girls name.
‘The Fall’ has an interesting history. In England, up until the sixteenth century, it commonly referred to ‘Autumn’. It moved to America with the early settler. Then it disappears, out of use in England.
‘The Fall’ has an interesting history. In England, up until the sixteenth century, it commonly referred to ‘Autumn’. It moved to America with the early settler. Then it disappears, out of use in England.
hartfire · 61-69
Me again... short for, "here I am again."
Learning a foreign language usually means learning to read and write it. That usually means learning it in a formal and correct way, the way most graduates of humanities at university would write and speak.
If it included learning to understand it aurally and speak it, the syllabus would rarely include updates in the latest colloquial usage, unless it were already widely used in the media and, even then, it would never be complete because living languages are always evolving.
I'm 68 years old. Within my lifetime, it's become more common to say, "I'm 68," and leave off the defining "years old". In English grammar, this dropping of a phase is called an elision, and occurs most often when the absent words are understood from the context.
Hardly anyone talks of finding a "parking place" anymore; they speak of finding a "park". The first time I heard it, I thought they meant a public place full of grass and trees - which would have indicated a major change of plan.
Some phrases are changed by political design, for instance, it was the rightwing think tanks that changed "global warming" to "climate change" - a shift of emphasis that denies the direction of mean global temperatures significantly rising. It's intended to deflect from the reality of what's really happening.
I've noticed a tendency for some people to drop personal pronouns where the person is known to the listener. So a text might read, "have a migraine, stayed home today," where it's understood that the writer is "I".
Language is amazing: a system of coding that enables us to understand fine nuances of meaning; be exact, ambiguous or deceptive; diplomatic or deliberately offensive; resolve issues, problems or disagreements; teach facts; trigger laugher; express feelings, values, culture, spirituality; draft constitutions and legislation, or conduct legal battles. The human brain itself is amazing that it can manage all this.
But because it's so complex and we are fallible, language is forever an imperfect medium. A person can test 100% perfect on a test of English vocabulary, grammar, syntax, and creativity, and still have trouble understanding others. One of the reasons is that very few native speakers ever reach 100% fluency in their own language.
So at least half the struggle in understanding others amounts to understanding context, tone of voice, gesture, facial expressions, and the peculiarities of the speaker or author. When these fail, there's no harm in asking, "sorry, what do you mean?"
Or, sending the question to the publisher...
Learning a foreign language usually means learning to read and write it. That usually means learning it in a formal and correct way, the way most graduates of humanities at university would write and speak.
If it included learning to understand it aurally and speak it, the syllabus would rarely include updates in the latest colloquial usage, unless it were already widely used in the media and, even then, it would never be complete because living languages are always evolving.
I'm 68 years old. Within my lifetime, it's become more common to say, "I'm 68," and leave off the defining "years old". In English grammar, this dropping of a phase is called an elision, and occurs most often when the absent words are understood from the context.
Hardly anyone talks of finding a "parking place" anymore; they speak of finding a "park". The first time I heard it, I thought they meant a public place full of grass and trees - which would have indicated a major change of plan.
Some phrases are changed by political design, for instance, it was the rightwing think tanks that changed "global warming" to "climate change" - a shift of emphasis that denies the direction of mean global temperatures significantly rising. It's intended to deflect from the reality of what's really happening.
I've noticed a tendency for some people to drop personal pronouns where the person is known to the listener. So a text might read, "have a migraine, stayed home today," where it's understood that the writer is "I".
Language is amazing: a system of coding that enables us to understand fine nuances of meaning; be exact, ambiguous or deceptive; diplomatic or deliberately offensive; resolve issues, problems or disagreements; teach facts; trigger laugher; express feelings, values, culture, spirituality; draft constitutions and legislation, or conduct legal battles. The human brain itself is amazing that it can manage all this.
But because it's so complex and we are fallible, language is forever an imperfect medium. A person can test 100% perfect on a test of English vocabulary, grammar, syntax, and creativity, and still have trouble understanding others. One of the reasons is that very few native speakers ever reach 100% fluency in their own language.
So at least half the struggle in understanding others amounts to understanding context, tone of voice, gesture, facial expressions, and the peculiarities of the speaker or author. When these fail, there's no harm in asking, "sorry, what do you mean?"
Or, sending the question to the publisher...
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hartfire · 61-69
@ArishMell Yes, I've noticed.
It seems also that American spelling, grammar, pronunciation and idiot are also taught at school level throughout Europe. Americanisations are now standard in many scientific research papers. It seems on its way to becoming an international standard.
I mourn the change. I'm very attached to the beauty, subtlety and precision of British English.
It seems also that American spelling, grammar, pronunciation and idiot are also taught at school level throughout Europe. Americanisations are now standard in many scientific research papers. It seems on its way to becoming an international standard.
I mourn the change. I'm very attached to the beauty, subtlety and precision of British English.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@hartfire It is very sad - driven purely by US commerce (including entertainments and the IT trade) and politics.
A lot of business managers now talk American too, at least at work. Those pretentious "Chief xxxx Officer" titles for directors, and the vacuous waffle summed up by "mission statements", are signs of that.
Another came from my own employer when it was working towards gaining ISO9001 accreditation. This included writing formal instructions for all our administrative and technical processes, using a supplied "Word"-document template.
The important introductory details would have occupied one page. Instead the document had about ten pages of mostly nothing useful, with headings like "scope" and "metrics", then an Appendix. We were told to ignore "metrics" - no-one knew what they were anyway. Two or three pages were blank except for central legends, "This page is left intentionally blank" - no-one knew why.
The important material, i.e. the instructions, were merely the "Appendix"!
Apparently, the managers had found this ridiculous template in some American business-college text-book or other.
One aspect of the American language is that it ignores etymology, sometimes with very odd results. Two examples:
- To an American, someone with a wrongful attraction to children is a pedophile. The word is paedophile: ped means feet as in pedal, pedestrian, etc; paed means child, as in paediatrics. (The roots are Greek.)
- . A science teacher told me that American geologists have ordered that the geological time called the Cainozoic be spelled "Cenozoic" - but that reverses the meaning. Cainozoic, he explained to me, means roughly "full of, or rich in, life"; Cenozoic means "devoid of life".
Another is the inability to pronounce middle syllables of long words - "aluminum" for "aluminium". Even the UK's National Health Service has picked up the Americanism "specialty" for "speciality".
Decades ago, in the Cold War, the USSR called the USA "imperialists" and "hegemonists". That was hypocritical of the Kremlin to say the least, but it had a point with the hegemony, if only culturally.
A lot of business managers now talk American too, at least at work. Those pretentious "Chief xxxx Officer" titles for directors, and the vacuous waffle summed up by "mission statements", are signs of that.
Another came from my own employer when it was working towards gaining ISO9001 accreditation. This included writing formal instructions for all our administrative and technical processes, using a supplied "Word"-document template.
The important introductory details would have occupied one page. Instead the document had about ten pages of mostly nothing useful, with headings like "scope" and "metrics", then an Appendix. We were told to ignore "metrics" - no-one knew what they were anyway. Two or three pages were blank except for central legends, "This page is left intentionally blank" - no-one knew why.
The important material, i.e. the instructions, were merely the "Appendix"!
Apparently, the managers had found this ridiculous template in some American business-college text-book or other.
One aspect of the American language is that it ignores etymology, sometimes with very odd results. Two examples:
- To an American, someone with a wrongful attraction to children is a pedophile. The word is paedophile: ped means feet as in pedal, pedestrian, etc; paed means child, as in paediatrics. (The roots are Greek.)
- . A science teacher told me that American geologists have ordered that the geological time called the Cainozoic be spelled "Cenozoic" - but that reverses the meaning. Cainozoic, he explained to me, means roughly "full of, or rich in, life"; Cenozoic means "devoid of life".
Another is the inability to pronounce middle syllables of long words - "aluminum" for "aluminium". Even the UK's National Health Service has picked up the Americanism "specialty" for "speciality".
Decades ago, in the Cold War, the USSR called the USA "imperialists" and "hegemonists". That was hypocritical of the Kremlin to say the least, but it had a point with the hegemony, if only culturally.
hartfire · 61-69
Try reading any novel written by Joseph Conrad.
Born Polish, he learned to read and write English far better than most native speakers.
Though a little old fashioned now, his language is still clear and brilliant.
Contemporary novels frequently use the latest idioms and slang. I myself find this frustrating because I'm 68 and don't understand most of it.
I far prefer novels that use classic language that bears the test of time. These can often use idiom in the speech of characters to add realism (verisimilitude), but the context makes the meaning clear. Charles Dickens is the exemplar.
Alternatively, try dipping into many books in a library, or sampling first chapters online.
You'll eventually find writers whose style matches your well developed English.
I'd be curious to know what you're reading now.
What are some example of the strange words, or "sentences" in a strange order?
Born Polish, he learned to read and write English far better than most native speakers.
Though a little old fashioned now, his language is still clear and brilliant.
Contemporary novels frequently use the latest idioms and slang. I myself find this frustrating because I'm 68 and don't understand most of it.
I far prefer novels that use classic language that bears the test of time. These can often use idiom in the speech of characters to add realism (verisimilitude), but the context makes the meaning clear. Charles Dickens is the exemplar.
Alternatively, try dipping into many books in a library, or sampling first chapters online.
You'll eventually find writers whose style matches your well developed English.
I'd be curious to know what you're reading now.
What are some example of the strange words, or "sentences" in a strange order?
SunshineGirl · 36-40, F
If you are having difficulty understanding historical novels because of the vocabulary or word order, there are plenty of study aids to help. The best advice I guess is to read lots by a particular author, or in a particular genre, to increase your familiarity and understanding of the literary style.
Or you could post things you don't understand here for discussion. It's always good to share ideas 🙂
Or you could post things you don't understand here for discussion. It's always good to share ideas 🙂
peterlee · M
@SunshineGirl Some modern literary writers have their own subset of vocabulary which I have to look up when reading.
Ian McEwen for one. But then what do you expect for someone who went to Sussex. Which he describes in Blue Tooth, as something between a holiday camp and a building site in the sixties
Ian McEwen for one. But then what do you expect for someone who went to Sussex. Which he describes in Blue Tooth, as something between a holiday camp and a building site in the sixties
SunshineGirl · 36-40, F
@peterlee That's what a good novel does, transport us to another place, time, viewed through someone else's eyes.
I'm reading Moll Flanders right now, getting to grips with the vocabulary of late 17th century London.
I'm reading Moll Flanders right now, getting to grips with the vocabulary of late 17th century London.
Thevy29 · 41-45, M
I used to keep a dictionary close by, to look up new words. As for the word structure? I'd get used to it after 60 pages or so.
SomeMichGuy · M
Strange words: that's the domain of a good dictionary.
If you read 19th cent British novels, the words are often either marked "archaic" or "obsolescent" in American dictionaries, AND the English tend to keep distinct shades of meaning (rather than claiming a set of words are all synonyms).
Some writers actually strive to use words which you have to look up, as a conceit / matter of pretentious pride...
If you read 19th cent British novels, the words are often either marked "archaic" or "obsolescent" in American dictionaries, AND the English tend to keep distinct shades of meaning (rather than claiming a set of words are all synonyms).
Some writers actually strive to use words which you have to look up, as a conceit / matter of pretentious pride...
Yassmeene · F
@SomeMichGuy I'm reading an English novel I guess, I'm not sure if it's translated to a English but the novel's name is "Ema"
Thanks for responding to my question...I tried so many things to understand the meaning of some sentences still I can't find any explanation...The problem with some novels is that the word order is different from how words are ordered nowadays...It's as if I went 1000 years back in time...
Thanks for responding to my question...I tried so many things to understand the meaning of some sentences still I can't find any explanation...The problem with some novels is that the word order is different from how words are ordered nowadays...It's as if I went 1000 years back in time...
SomeMichGuy · M
@Yassmeene
You are welcome! I think you are referrung to Emma.
Can you show any examples of the strange sentences...?
You are welcome! I think you are referrung to Emma.
Can you show any examples of the strange sentences...?
FreddieUK · 70-79, M
@Yassmeene Emma is a novel that many British readers have a challenge with, while others absolutely love it. Jane Austen (1775–1817) wrote in a culture no modern reader has experienced so most of the social habits are foreign to us. However, her observation of men and women relating in what we would consider a very restricted way is superb, remembering her life experience was itself bounded by the rules of women in society back then and the extremely formal (to out ears) dialogue can sometimes be demanding. There's no swearing, so that's good. 😄
Pfuzylogic · M
An Author normally provides a synopsis of what they wrote to the publisher. If you aren’t afraid of spoilers to the plot then Blinkist provides summaries in bullet points, and GetAbstract offers summaries with articles and videos. Goodreads also provides brief summaries.
They will help you fill what you read into understandable “containers/summaries” that the synopsis provides.
They will help you fill what you read into understandable “containers/summaries” that the synopsis provides.
Jenny1234 · 56-60, F
Can you give us an example because I can’t think of any words or sentences put in a strange order in a published novel. I think that the problem it’s just that you need a better translator app
hartfire · 61-69
@FreddieUK Ha! Ha! The author of possibly the most difficult novel in the English! His best known work, Ulysses, details three days in the life of an Irish youth and his oafish mates - while mimicing the plot of Homer's Greek classic, The Odyssey.
Joyce is one of the originators of modernist writing, helping to create that fashion for focus on the trivia inside the mind of the protagonist. One paragraph puts most insomniacs to sleep.
Joyce is one of the originators of modernist writing, helping to create that fashion for focus on the trivia inside the mind of the protagonist. One paragraph puts most insomniacs to sleep.
hartfire · 61-69
@FreddieUK Yassmeen asked for 'Any advice about how to understand the strange, words or "sentences" put in a strange order?' -- not books which have that trait.
I've never found anything wrong with Joyce's word order. On the contrary, he could write with such left-to-right linguistic logic that he could eliminate most commas without losing the meaning.
Some people struggle with his sentences being too long, sometimes a whole page or more. I found the main trouble there was just holding it all in short-tem memory long enough to collect the whole meaning into one thought.
As was true of much early modernist writing, his goal was to create an illusion of stream-of-consciousness. Who knows? Perhaps Joyce actually did think in incredibly long sentences.
I've never found anything wrong with Joyce's word order. On the contrary, he could write with such left-to-right linguistic logic that he could eliminate most commas without losing the meaning.
Some people struggle with his sentences being too long, sometimes a whole page or more. I found the main trouble there was just holding it all in short-tem memory long enough to collect the whole meaning into one thought.
As was true of much early modernist writing, his goal was to create an illusion of stream-of-consciousness. Who knows? Perhaps Joyce actually did think in incredibly long sentences.