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God, the Holocaust and Etty Hillesum

One rather shocking question is why did God let the Holocaust happen. Let me now try to answer the question. Your views may not be mine but atleast we'll have thought about it :)

Firstly, while the Holocaust was by no means Christian, the shocking truth is it could never have happened without the centuries of Church persecution of the Jews which came before it and a theology that demonised them.

Secondly, the Holocaust is a prime example of the evil humanity is capable of perpetrating. We may not know the reasons why God allowed this, yet God shared the suffering of His chosen people. He was, like believing Jews know only too well, not distant.

Finally, we are inclined by nature toward selfishness and sin so in this view He is God the omnipotent, the all-powerful Creator, but He is not omnibenevolent because He did not create our souls in a way that predispositioned us all for salvation.

Nicholas Wolterstorff, writing against the grain of centuries of Christian theology, states the seemingly obvious: “Given that all human actions are temporal,” he reasons, “those actions of God which are ‘response’ are temporal as well.”

Personally, I've read quite a few books on the subject matter but yet again I like particulary what Rowan Williams said in ending the following talk with Reza Shah-Kazemi about Etty Hillesum.

[media=https://youtu.be/jrUoNsbphCs]
Human1000 · M Best Comment
Christine theology isn’t designed to stand up to rational scrutiny.
JSul3 · 70-79
@val70 Christine Jorgensen was an American trans woman who was the first person to become widely known in the United States for having sex reassignment surgery. She had a successful career as an actress, singer, and recording artist. Jorgensen was drafted into the U.S. Army during World War II.
val70 · 51-55
@JSul3 So Willy thinks that she has a theology to share?
JSul3 · 70-79
@val70 ??????

Richard65 · M
The German philosopher Theodor Adorno stated the famous phrase, "No poetry after Auschwitz." This is often misinterpreted. What he meant was that the Holocaust had shown the human experiment had failed, and failed miserably. The human experiment being the development of "civilised" mankind from the beginning of the Enlightenment through to the (his) modern era. The Enlightenment, through hundreds of years, ushered in scientific discovery, rational thought, a move away from ancient superstition and magic.

By 1940 it was thought the civilised world had reached its apotheosis. We had science, medicine, philosophy, art, literature - everything that one would assume necessary for an egalitarian society to thrive. Germany was at the forefront of this experiment. Germany had art, science and industry, it had mastered the latest technology. But instead of an egalitarian society, it mutated into Nazism, global war and turned its technological advancement towards genocide. Adorno suggested that the very same post-Enlightenment culture that had produced such astounding leaps in knowledge, technology and art had also produced the Holocaust. In short, the experiment had failed and the ENTIRE culture that spawned it had also failed (so no more poetry (culture) after Auschwitz). This is why the Holocaust is held up as the absolute nadir of civilisation - because the culture that perpetrated it was thought to be the finest mankind was capable of being.

If God exists, He knew this and watched the entire horror unfold. He saw the failure of the human experiment and allowed it to take its natural course towards torture, mass murder and genocide.

Draw your own conclusions as to what that might mean.
Richard65 · M
@val70 I didn't say everyone coming out of the Holocaust did cast away their faith.
If 43% are still faithful, that means 57% lost their faith. I think the Holocaust rocked Jewish faith to the core. It's beyond understanding that a benevolent God would sit by and watch children screaming in a gas chamber before struggling for breath and dying terribly amid the chaos of such a scene. There's simply nothing to excuse it. Such a God couldn't possibly be called a God of love.
Best wishes to you.
val70 · 51-55
@JSul3 For the record, I'm not German and I don't hate anyone. My family were in the resistance and some were killed. You obviously can't stand believers. Enough is plain. You don't know me, but you attack my right on expressing a point of view that isn't hostile to anyone just because you want to bully someone with faith. You're the bully, and it all starts there. I wish you a good life :-)
val70 · 51-55
@Richard65 Nope, 43% goes to the temple weekly. Right, I'm off again. You have a good week :-)
Budwick · 70-79, M
[quote]One rather shocking question is why did God let the Holocaust happen.[/quote]

God doesn't steer the behavior of people.
That's why you didn't get that bike Christmas 1970.
val70 · 51-55
@Budwick I'm sure that we need that, lad :-)
Budwick · 70-79, M
@val70 It seems you do.
val70 · 51-55
@Budwick 🙄
JSul3 · 70-79
According to the bible (the white mans King James version), god turned a woman into a pillar of salt, struck people dead, and drowned mankind in a flood. So he had power to intervene in the Holocaust (as well as all the other horrors in history) and evidently chose to sit and watch.

I have read and viewed documentaries where survivors, who were very devout, ask the question: 'Where was god? Why did he not stop this?' etc. Many became atheists or agnostics. Who could blame them?

It is enough to make you consider, is god an antisemite?
JSul3 · 70-79
@SW-User "Atoms colliding" is too violent. Perhaps they were merging together as a sperm to an egg.
SW-User
@JSul3 As the Universe expanded from a singularity.
Diotrephes · 70-79, M
@JSul3 [quote]According to the bible (the white mans King James version), god turned a woman into a pillar of salt, struck people dead, and drowned mankind in a flood. So he had power to intervene in the Holocaust (as well as all the other horrors in history) and evidently chose to sit and watch.

I have read and viewed documentaries where survivors, who were very devout, ask the question: 'Where was god? Why did he not stop this?' etc. Many became atheists or agnostics. Who could blame them?

It is enough to make you consider, is god an antisemite?[/quote]

Read 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 = https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+thessalonians+2%3A14-16&version=NIV

& Zephaniah 1:2-3 = https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=zephaniah+1%3A2-3&version=NKJV
InHeaven · F
...well, when Jews crucified God didn’t they curse themselves by saying .... “His blood be upon us and upon our children.” 🤔🤔🤔 They kinda asked for it themselves in a way maybe
val70 · 51-55
@InHeaven I'm sorry, but it were the Romans who crucified Christ. The Annals by Tacitus from AD 115 mentioned the Roman prefect Pontius Pilate executing Jesus, alluding to crucifixion, and placed that event within the timeframe that agrees with Christian gospels. The Romans always crucified their own prisoners, certaintly in a province that was Roman. St Paul was taken in person by a centurian to Rome to be judged and punished just because he was Roman. They did take the execution of the law very seriously then. Christ was judged by Roman law for sedition against the local establishment albeit Piltate didn't agree to the punishment
InHeaven · F
@val70 romans only nailed the nails into the cross as it was “their job”, but jews convicted him and yelled His blood on their children. Pilate wanted to let Him go alive but jew priests insisted He be crucified and DEAD. Don’t blame “evil” God allowing “evil” things to completely innocent jews. Nope. They brought it on themselves. But now its all “romans’ fault” and “bad God” . As always
val70 · 51-55
@InHeaven I guess that you don't know the expression "washing ones hands off it" in Roman law either then. Strange logic that :-)
lumberjackslam · 41-45, M
Of course the victims who went through it are right to question God. But I put more emphasis on actual understanding of what happened. God must have a hands-off approach. And there are stories of 'miracles' happening on an individual level during those events one of which was related to me by the son of a Holocaust survivor.
JSul3 · 70-79
@lumberjackslam I always wonder about gods 'selectivity.'
lumberjackslam · 41-45, M
@JSul3 me too but could our questioning be a lack of understanding
JSul3 · 70-79
@lumberjackslam Perhaps. I just never will understand how he chooses who to help and who not to.
During my life I have seen many things that do not set well for me.
I have seen a number of innocent children, who have died due to a number of things. Why did he allow their suffering? They are innocent children! They have done nothing to deserve that. If it sounds like I am angry with 'god' if he even exists, you damn right I am.
Renaci · 36-40
People don't want explanations from yet another apologist. That want to hear GOD's excuse. Not yours. GOD's!
Thing is he doesn't explain himself because there is no possible excuse. There is nothing he can EVER do to compensate for his crimes. He is evil itself. And anyone that not only doesn't see that but continues to worship and even love such a being is evil as well. Because either through action or inaction they show their approval of rape, genocide, pedophilia, etc...
val70 · 51-55
@Rolexeo Try reading the existing sources first, mate
Rolexeo · 26-30, M
@val70 screenshot it
val70 · 51-55
@Rolexeo I'm from a different dimension
Meanwhile, God was all...
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val70 · 51-55
@Emosaur I'm all for reading :-) have a family member who's mentioned as Righteous Among the Nations myself
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val70 · 51-55
@Emosaur What's the point of total ignorance? That's for you to decide
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val70 · 51-55
@Emosaur You have the right to think that way. Good luck
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JSul3 · 70-79
@MarmeeMarch So, can't answer the questions.
Got it.
val70 · 51-55
@JSul3 🙄

 
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