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God, the Holocaust and Etty Hillesum

One rather shocking question is why did God let the Holocaust happen. Let me now try to answer the question. Your views may not be mine but atleast we'll have thought about it :)

Firstly, while the Holocaust was by no means Christian, the shocking truth is it could never have happened without the centuries of Church persecution of the Jews which came before it and a theology that demonised them.

Secondly, the Holocaust is a prime example of the evil humanity is capable of perpetrating. We may not know the reasons why God allowed this, yet God shared the suffering of His chosen people. He was, like believing Jews know only too well, not distant.

Finally, we are inclined by nature toward selfishness and sin so in this view He is God the omnipotent, the all-powerful Creator, but He is not omnibenevolent because He did not create our souls in a way that predispositioned us all for salvation.

Nicholas Wolterstorff, writing against the grain of centuries of Christian theology, states the seemingly obvious: “Given that all human actions are temporal,” he reasons, “those actions of God which are ‘response’ are temporal as well.”

Personally, I've read quite a few books on the subject matter but yet again I like particulary what Rowan Williams said in ending the following talk with Reza Shah-Kazemi about Etty Hillesum.

[media=https://youtu.be/jrUoNsbphCs]

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Richard65 · M

The German philosopher Theodor Adorno stated the famous phrase, "No poetry after Auschwitz." This is often misinterpreted. What he meant was that the Holocaust had shown the human experiment had failed, and failed miserably. The human experiment being the development of "civilised" mankind from the beginning of the Enlightenment through to the (his) modern era. The Enlightenment, through hundreds of years, ushered in scientific discovery, rational thought, a move away from ancient superstition and magic.

By 1940 it was thought the civilised world had reached its apotheosis. We had science, medicine, philosophy, art, literature - everything that one would assume necessary for an egalitarian society to thrive. Germany was at the forefront of this experiment. Germany had art, science and industry, it had mastered the latest technology. But instead of an egalitarian society, it mutated into Nazism, global war and turned its technological advancement towards genocide. Adorno suggested that the very same post-Enlightenment culture that had produced such astounding leaps in knowledge, technology and art had also produced the Holocaust. In short, the experiment had failed and the ENTIRE culture that spawned it had also failed (so no more poetry (culture) after Auschwitz). This is why the Holocaust is held up as the absolute nadir of civilisation - because the culture that perpetrated it was thought to be the finest mankind was capable of being.

If God exists, He knew this and watched the entire horror unfold. He saw the failure of the human experiment and allowed it to take its natural course towards torture, mass murder and genocide.

Draw your own conclusions as to what that might mean.

JSul3 · 70-79

@Richard65 IMO god retired when Jesus came and from that moment, mankind was now on their own with no further intervention by god.
IMO, mankind is losing its humanity by the day.

val70 · 51-55

@Richard65 God reacts only if we knock on the door. A good jewish joke goes that one need to buy the ticket first in order to win the lotery. Jesus Christ came and showed the way. We come to God via His Son. For God to give up His Son in such dreadful way is there actually anything else to do next? Humanity is on its own only when the individual or collective choses to be so and that's the conclusion one need to draw out of the past since then

JSul3 · 70-79

@val70 Where was god during the Holocaust?

Richard65 · M

@val70 then why do people pray? Why do rabbis and priests advise people to pray to God? How many people must have prayed to God so passionately during the Holocaust, only for their children to be thrown into ovens as God heard their prayers yet did nothing?

val70 · 51-55

@Richard65 @JSul3 Ever heard of the expression knock on doors? I guess that you two don't need to convert anyone to non-believe here, so why don't you move on... Oh yes, through your own logic you're a bully. Grand self-analysis :)

JSul3 · 70-79

@val70 We simply want answers to our valid questions.
Why is that so difficult for people like you to understand?

Why can't you simply admit that you have no answers?

val70 · 51-55

@JSul3 Well, it's my own long experience -even on here- that it's indeed so such harder to understand why one isn't actually tollerant to a person with faith and actually let him or her believe so. I'm not saying that you need to have any faith. I wish you all the luck :)

Richard65 · M

@val70 you're just avoiding a legitimate theoligical question because you clearly can't answer it. If you don't want the debate then why ask the question?

val70 · 51-55

@Richard65 What question on God am I avoiding? Either there's the belief that there's a God or not. Either one is a believer or not. On what planet can you pose the question on the non-existance of God and tell me that it has any theological base? Oh yes, you believe in alternatives perhaps? Theology is the study of religious faith, practice, and experience, especially the study of God and of God's relation to the world. The non-believer needs to accept his or her own belief and I wish them truly good luck

JSul3 · 70-79

@val70 I have plenty of family members (both deceased and still alive and well) that have faith. I have no problem with people's faith or their choice of religion.
I simply have valid questions that I seek answers for.
I have more respect for those that honestly tell me they can't or don't have an answer, versus those who say, 'well, you will understand one day' or 'you are out of the will of God' and other BS.

You can't read the bible and turn a blind eye to the hypocrisy in it. God kills at will in the Old Testament, then 'retires' after Jesus arrives, and sits back and watches horrific events like the Holocaust, and does zero about it.

val70 · 51-55

@JSul3 Here's what religion was for Voltaire -not near a believer like myself- : the institution of religion exists only to keep mankind in order, and to make men merit the goodness of God by their virtue. Everything in a religion which does not tend towards this goal must be considered foreign or dangerous. I tend to adhere to that thought. God is there for me and it's mankind who extends the evil through the world at all times and dimensions possible

Richard65 · M

@val70 you wrote, "He was, like believing Jews know only too well, not distant."

So why did He sit by and watch children gassed and burned? I've read numerous accounts of "believing Jews" who wholly lost their faith in the aftermath of the Holocaust because they simply couldn't believe a benevolent God would sit by and allow such a horror to unfold. Others said they didn't want to believe in a God who would sit by and do nothing, they'd rather believe there was no God at all.

JSul3 · 70-79

@val70 Where was god during the Holocaust?
Was he siding with Hitler? Is he an antisemite?

val70 · 51-55

@JSul3 I think that you should aim your attacking spirit not on me nor my believes. Even Voltaire said that the institution of religion exists only to keep mankind in order, and to make men merit the goodness of God by their virtue. Everything in a religion which does not tend towards this goal must be considered foreign or dangerous. I don't go around telling Germans that they should just deny themselves a country because some of them in past tortured and murdered some of family members during the long occupation years

JSul3 · 70-79

@Richard65 Bravo.

JSul3 · 70-79

@val70 So you refuse to answer my questions.
Got it.

For the record, children in Germany are required to learn about the Holocaust, visit a museum, and tour a concentration camp.

Why would they do that?
Answer: To learn about the horrors of it, understand who was responsible for it, and to MAKE SURE IT NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN!
Got it?

val70 · 51-55

@Richard65 Likewise I can claim that the utterance that everyone coming out the Holocaust did cast away their faith is a liar. Either one has faith or not. A religious Jew has faith. In Israël about 43% is still of faith and that means that are still attending their temple weekly

JSul3 · 70-79

@val70 Why was god a spectator?

Richard65 · M

@val70 I didn't say everyone coming out of the Holocaust did cast away their faith.
If 43% are still faithful, that means 57% lost their faith. I think the Holocaust rocked Jewish faith to the core. It's beyond understanding that a benevolent God would sit by and watch children screaming in a gas chamber before struggling for breath and dying terribly amid the chaos of such a scene. There's simply nothing to excuse it. Such a God couldn't possibly be called a God of love.
Best wishes to you.

val70 · 51-55

@JSul3 For the record, I'm not German and I don't hate anyone. My family were in the resistance and some were killed. You obviously can't stand believers. Enough is plain. You don't know me, but you attack my right on expressing a point of view that isn't hostile to anyone just because you want to bully someone with faith. You're the bully, and it all starts there. I wish you a good life :-)

val70 · 51-55

@Richard65 Nope, 43% goes to the temple weekly. Right, I'm off again. You have a good week :-)