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Definition of Genocide

The term "genocide" was coined by Polish lawyer Raphael Lemkin after World War Two. The text of the Genocide Convention adopted by the U.N. defines it as "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group, as such" through five acts, all of which must be present.

1. Killing members of the group
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

At the insistence of the USSR, political and class groups were excluded, as the Soviets didn't want the perpetrators of the Great Terror or the Holodomor to be accused of genocide. This also prevented the "killing fields" of the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia from being included.

It's important to use the term as defined, and not apply it as a pejorative to wars that people may personally disapprove of.
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CountScrofula · 41-45, M
See what I like about this definition is that it in no way says that you need to say, systematically attempt to exterminate everyone of a people group, like in some of the most horrific genocides. Because although it's a very dumb idea to compare atrocities, some atrocities go farther than others.

Everyone thinks genocides have to look like the Holocaust, but most don't and the definition makes it clear. Although I hate argument-by-dictionary since words are defined by use, this helps illustrate genocide is a far broader term than people often think it is.

Apply that to Gaza, and the shoe fits. It is an ethnically homogenous area which is being completely destroyed. The people in this area cannot leave. The civilian death count is massive and is at least 18,000, 40% of which are children.

With the infrastructure gone, the real killers come next. The slow death of starvation, and then the disease which will invariably crop up without functioning water and sewage.

The end result will be mass deaths of an identifiable people group because they are members of that people group. Palestinians are being killed because they are Palestinian. That is genocide. The justification does not matter, the deaths matter.
trollslayer · 46-50, M
@SW-User Actions of individual Israeli soldiers point otherwise.
SW-User
@trollslayer some individuals surely are motivated by hatred at this point, yes.
trollslayer · 46-50, M
@SW-User Considering they are posting to social media, and the goal of social media is to get "likes", clearly this is the sentiment of more than just a few individuals.
Puppycat23 · F
From the comments I’ve received, people are now using the term genocide as any human casualties in war even if it doesn’t match up to being a genocide. But because people believe that there is a genocide happening with Palestinians, I do find it weird that countries that border Gaza aren’t helping anyone who wants to leave seek refuge. The two answers I get often is “why should it be other countries responsibility to take Palestinians in” and “that would be ethnic cleansing”. To me it sends mixed messages.

Besides that Only a handful, have been able to leave however: International visitors, preemies and families who have a child with cancer needing treatment. A stark contrast to how other countries were willing to help a majority of Ukrainians seek refuge after Russia invaded their country at the time folks were calling Russia’s actions genocidal.
trollslayer · 46-50, M
@LeopoldBloom Well, Israel's current PM says "No Way" to that idea. Why hasn't Israel over all these years "cut them loose" if they are a "millstone around their neck"? Seems they would have the power to do so. Instead, they seem to be insisting on pushing settlers into occupied territories in the West bank. So what's next?
@trollslayer The answer is too many right wingers. But I don't see Netanyahu's career surviving this. Golda Meir was far more popular, and she had to resign within a few months of the Yom Kippur War. With the revelations that the government was aware of Hamas' preparations and dismissed them, Netanyahu is taking the blame for Oct. 7. The liberals already hated him, and the conservatives have no use for him if he couldn't even keep them safe. The succeeding administration is going to be under a lot of pressure to find a better solution than just maintaining the status quo.
trollslayer · 46-50, M
@LeopoldBloom I agree 100%. Internal pressure within Israel will force a different outcome. The other day IDF was showing big tunnels right next to the gaza border big enough to drive a car through, saying "look how extensive their terror network is!" But gee, didn't we hear about those tunnels in the 2014 war? And how they hell does Hamas build a tunnel that big right next to the border and Israel not know about it? From what I gather, Israelis are wondering the same thing. I don't think the Jewish population in the USA is being as critical, though, and that is probably affecting my viewpoint.
trollslayer · 46-50, M
By this definition the usa committed genocide towards native americans.
Cyclist · 46-50, M
@trollslayer and Canada and Australia. No one is disputing that genocide happened.
trollslayer · 46-50, M
@Cyclist Some deny it, some claim it is still going on.
@Cyclist Believe it or not, some are.
SW-User
At the insistence of the USSR, political and class groups were excluded, as the Soviets didn't want the perpetrators of the Great Terror or the Holodomor to be accused of genocide. This also prevented the "killing fields" of the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia from being included.


In other words, the term was, and is, void.

It's important to use the term as defined, and not apply it as a pejorative to wars that people may personally disapprove of.


Void.

We can, and do, use this word how we see fit.

Raphael Lemkin said genocide needs to be understood so you can prevent future genocides, but how does one preempt a genocide?

People never apply an equal standard. They are biased and have agendas. Most of us are cowards, and would not be prepared to use this word and demand the implementation of laws around it in a way that is brave and fair.

Lemkin thought the Armenians were subject to a genocide in World War I, but has anything changed for them? They are still being cleansed by Muslims. It does not matter, though. This word means nothing, and the individuals using it are ignorant and mad.

All, or most, governments commit genocide. If they do not, they are likely to.
trollslayer · 46-50, M
@SW-User
All, or most, governments commit genocide. If they do not, they are likely to

I agree but would phrase differently - that nearly all government/countries/religions at one time have committed acts that can arguably be described as genocide. The problem seems to be who gets to write the definition.
@SW-User The people accusing Israel of genocide right now are not qualifying it with "but of course, every other government is doing it." It's a unique accusation intended to negate any claims of self-defense by calling it a "genocide," implying that Israel is a particularly evil country that has no right to exist.
SW-User
@LeopoldBloom It is troubling to the extent they ignore many other instances of mass death, or mass killing. Martyrdom is pursued and celebrated in Gaza, but no one seems to think about that.

Mass atrocities exist across the world, and they also do not seem to think about that. The left, which you are a part of in other regards, panders to Muslims. There was an exception to this when Qatar held the World Cup last year, but people have short memories. Jews are considered rich, and they think all the Jews living in Israel are privileged and White. It is acceptable to kill people belonging to the same group as you, or a group no one cares about (example: Christians), but not one that is considered less privileged, and is certainly more vocal.

Despite Christians being killed in other parts of the world, the only ones recently mentioned are those who were shot by the IDF, the Jews, in Gaza. There would be many more Christian churches with Christian family members attending them, had they not been cleansed from this region.
SW-User
This definition, which as you point out was fiddled with for political reasons from the start, is so broad as to be useless. Just about any army in a war is aiming to destroy "part" of a national group. Also I think you are misrepresenting it with "all of which must be present"; I don't see that in the text of the resolution.

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf
Bumbles · 56-60, M
Israel seems really bad at committing genocide.
trollslayer · 46-50, M
@Bumbles nope. I am 100% for israel protecting its people and land.
Bumbles · 56-60, M
@trollslayer We’ll, I can’t say I know about that, but it’s not how it’s presently used. And if it was wrong then it’s wrong now.
trollslayer · 46-50, M
@Bumbles and my hope is that both sides wind up with a place they can call “home” that is respected by both.
BohoBabe · M
Wouldn't the Holodomor still count because it was done to Ukrainians?
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gol979 · 46-50, M
The palestinians are being genocided right now
@gol979 I just gave the definition from the man who invented the word and it doesn't match what Israel is doing now. So you apparently subscribe to the Humpty Dumpty theory of "a word means what I choose it to mean, no more and no less."

Were the bombings of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Dresden genocides? What about Sherman's March to the Sea?
gol979 · 46-50, M
@LeopoldBloom the israeli state is committing genocide.....you think what you want but its genocide
@gol979 Then Hamas is also committing genocide, they're just not very good at it.

Please provide examples of Palestinian children kidnapped by the Israelis to be raised as Jews.
This message was deleted by its author.
@BlueGreenGrey We're going to "quibble" because words have specific meanings and shouldn't be misused for their emotional effect. This is why I call out pro-lifers when they call legal abortion "baby murder," because ZEFs aren't "babies" and abortion isn't "murder." All warfare isn't "genocide" either, even if you hate one side.

Was the bombing of Dresden genocide? What about Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Was Sherman's March to the Sea (which people where I live are still upset about) a genocide?
@trollslayer If the surrounding Arab countries had accepted the UN partition, Israel wouldn't have had any need to defend itself, and would be much smaller than it is today. It's not like Israel just started a war for no reason. The Arab countries didn't accept the partition because they were confident that they could crush the nascent Jewish state.
@BlueGreenGrey They weren't making a new state at that time. They were simply moving there, and once their numbers reached a certain point, the Arabs didn't like it. It's the same as white racists in the US getting upset about Black or Latino people moving near them. But I expect you're not sympathetic to that. But you are sympathetic to the Arab equivalent of MAGA racists. You should ask yourself why that is.

 
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